Brut IPA

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by GreenKrusty101, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    OK, a Brut IPA should have added enzymes (even that is debatable if using Brett I guess)...but when should the enzymes be added? I'm seeing anywhere from mash at 122*F with 5pH to when pitching the yeast. I plan on using amylase...what say you?
     
  2. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (877) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    I've never done this, but I'm not sure why you'd want to add them during the mash, as you already have active enzymes there and I'm not sure what at temperature glucoamylase is denatured. Adding it post-cooling seems like the right answer to me.
     
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  3. MrOH

    MrOH Champion (850) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    The NB Brut IPA kit has two different enzymes, Alpha Amylase added to the mash, and Amyloglucosidase added with the yeast
     
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  4. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Anyone have sanitation problems adding enzymes when pitching? Looks like the Amyloglucosidase might be sanitized already?
     
  5. Dave_S

    Dave_S Initiate (48) May 18, 2017 England

    I used 1cc of amyloglucosidase when primary fermentation was beginning to slow down and left it for a few more days before dry hopping. Seemed to work - I ended up at 1.000.
     
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  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,717) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    Jeff (@hopfenunmaltz), have you formulated your plan as regards enzymes for the Brut IPA that you are contemplating brewing?

    Cheers!
     
  7. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (239) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    Not sure why NB would add amylase enzyme...should be plenty of that in the grains. Amylo is what you want...can add it to the mash and should take a few extra points off the FG. Add it to the fermenter, i've heard post-peak fermentation like you would a sugar addition and it'll run. Don't plan on repitching the yeast though unless you want another uber dry beer (thanks Dave Berg for that pointer). Finally if bottling, you better be sure the fermentation is done. This will be an unstable beer.
     
  8. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (205) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    The term and concept of "Brut IPA" makes me sad.

    Add the enzymes at pitching. Or... ask yourself why you're not just pitching 3711 or Belle Saison instead of enzymes.
     
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  9. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Going to be a pseudo brut...adding to mash with some minute rice, a little sugar in the boil, and more bittering hops than usual for a brut IPA(25 ibus of sterling)...Huell Melon, Sterling, and Nelson Sauvin very late. As for the Saison yeast...that's crazy talk :grimacing:
     
  10. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,387) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    Amylo or equivalent product in the primary. You can find it in the LHBS distillation section.
     
  11. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,387) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    Amylo is the same enzyme those produce. If you just add the enzyme you can avoid the phenolics and esters those yeast produce.
     
  12. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (205) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Yeah but phenolics and esters are yummy anyway. Just sayin'. :slight_smile:
     
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  13. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,387) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    Sure, depending on the desired results.
     
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  14. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,756) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

    I never had one of these beers and haven't really followed the story too closely, so forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere... @GreenKrusty101 alludes to a pseudo Brut where sugar is subbed for malt to dry out beer, an approach many of us have taken for English, IPA, and Belgian styles, but maybe not to the extreme of a Brut IPA. How do results of a pseudo approach like this compare to the cold-side enzymatic approach?
     
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  15. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    I might be able to tell you anecdotally, shortly. I'm not really looking for a 1.00 FG beer...just something in the .007/.008 range. Cheers
     
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  16. MrOH

    MrOH Champion (850) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Because you don't want the phenols?
     
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  17. MrOH

    MrOH Champion (850) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    I've never had a "proper" Brut IPA made by a brewery, but I tried this approach by using honey for ~50% of fermentables. Turned out plenty dry (finished at .999), but I over bittered. Had it been a saison, it probably would have been ok due to the extra body from the glycols(? I think that's the term), but a bit much for such a thin beer. Other than that, I enjoyed it.
     
  18. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (877) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    It's glycerol, but close enough.
     
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  19. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (68) Dec 16, 2016 Alberta (Canada)
    Trader

    I'm also looking at jumping onto this bandwagon - has anyone worked with glucoamylase ? I believe this would be added during fermentation? what is the difference from beta amylase ?
     
  20. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,387) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    Beta clips from the end, breaking a 1-4 bond. Alpha clips randomly on the chain, but can't clip the 1-6 bond. Glocoamylase clips 1-4 and 1-6 bonds, giving the yeast more sugars.
     
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  21. chavinparty

    chavinparty Initiate (120) Jan 4, 2015 New Hampshire

    Anyone know where to buy glucoamylase? I’d like to give this style a shot but I don’t want to buy the wrong enzyme and it doesn’t seem to be sold by any homebrew vendors
     
  22. Dave_S

    Dave_S Initiate (48) May 18, 2017 England

  23. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,387) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    Look in the distillation section if the LHBS has one. Search for Amylo300 online.
     
  24. Eriktheipaman

    Eriktheipaman Savant (938) Sep 4, 2010 California

    Ultra-ferm from White Labs is what you're looking for.
     
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  25. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,756) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

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  26. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

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  27. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,756) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

    I noticed that too and was puzzled by it. I don't have enough biochemistry to really understand it, but here is some description of a calcium role in enzymatic reactions. I always heard yeast flocculation as the reason for the 50 ppm recommendations, and I'd be surprised if enzymes did not play a role it,
     
  28. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,387) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    Calcium is a cofactor in enzyme performance. Not surprised at the statement, which is on the package - I looked at mine in the fridge.
     
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  29. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Another interesting note from @ pweis909 latest link: "Calcium is another special case, in that it is required as a component of the human diet, and it is needed for the full activity of many enzymes, such as nitric oxide synthase, protein phosphatases, and adenylate kinase, but calcium activates these enzymes in allosteric regulation, often binding to these enzymes in a complex with calmodulin.[15] Calcium is, therefore, a cell signaling molecule, and not usually considered a cofactor of the enzymes it regulates.[16] "
     
  30. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,387) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    OK, another Homebrew myth?
     
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  31. Brewday

    Brewday Initiate (119) Dec 25, 2015 New York

    Seems like a good way to adjust the dryness by using different enzymes if you can even tell the difference. I'll have to try it in my next honey/maple mead.
     
  32. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

  33. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Well now I'm really confused :confused:...my usual beer ingredient suppliers are out of stock of
    Amyloglucosidase and while looking for another source I discovered that it is obtained usually from Asperillus Niger (a black mold)...just like Alpha-galactosidase (aka Beano). 2 different enzymes and I know Beano has been used by old-timers to allegedly quick-fix stuck fermentations.
    I'm thinking because there is not that much raffinose/melibiose in wort, the (Beano) might be what I'm looking for (not a 1.000 IPA), but a little drier.

    https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/qsnijNtlvF/melibiose/
    http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Carbohydrates

    Any organic chemists out there?
     
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  34. JohnnyChicago

    JohnnyChicago Crusader (795) Sep 3, 2010 Illinois

    It should be noted that adding enzyme to the fermenter leaves your TG at the mercy of the yeast/enzyme. If it starts getting lower than you want, you are basically stuck with that. Crashing too soon will result in overcarbonation and bottle bombs. Even if you keg, you will almost certainly pull high VDK for these unfinished, heavily hopped beers.

    I think 3711 and some corn or rice is probably your safest bet. If you don’t want the character of the yeast, just start it with a neutral yeast and pitch 3711 when fementation begins to slow.
     
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  35. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Interesting thoughts...don't plan on crashing it at all,.plan on using very little Alpha-galactosidase and take multiple gravity readings after fermentation. Did you know there is another enzyme that will totally bypass the VDK to diacetyl route? Some purists might consider this cheating, but I'll bet some commercial breweries are "juicing" :slight_smile:

    "Diacetyl control
    An important question for brewers is "When exactly is a beer mature?", because this determines when they can "rack" the beer to make way for the next batch. The simple answer to the above question is when the diacetyl level drops below a certain limit (about 0.07 ppm). Diacetyl gives beer an off-flavour like buttermilk and one of the main reasons for maturing a beer is to allow the diacetyl to drop to a level where it can't be tasted.

    Diacetyl is formed by the non-enzymatic oxidative decarboxylation of α-acetolactate, which is produced by the yeast during primary fermentation. The yeast removes the diacetyl again during the beer maturation stage by conversion to acetoin, which has a much higher flavour threshold value. In fact, acetoin is almost tasteless compared with diacetyl.

    By adding the enzyme α-acetolactate decarboxylase (ALDC) (e.g. Novozymes' Maturex) at the beginning of the primary fermentation process, it is possible to bypass the diacetyl step (Figure 7) and convert α-acetolactate directly into acetoin. Most of the α-acetolactate is degraded before it has a chance to oxidise and less diacetyl is therefore formed. This makes it possible to shorten or completely eliminate the maturation period (3) and (4). The brewery enjoys greater fermentation and maturation capacity without investing in new equipment."

    from: http://www.biokemi.org/biozoom/issues/522/articles/2368
     
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  36. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    fwiw...will not use Beano as it has other ingredients (potato starch ,mannitol, etc. Will probably use something like this:

    http://www.bean-zyme.com/
     
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  37. JohnnyChicago

    JohnnyChicago Crusader (795) Sep 3, 2010 Illinois

    Sigh, yeah I know of some guys that are using it for sure to combat hop creep and consistent VDK fails in their hazies.
    I’m no German, or some kind of ‘Food Babe’ food truther, but man at a certain point, I’m OK with not adding more shit to the beer...

    To each his own, but I’ve already likely consumed a couple of plastic army men worth of fermcap and handfuls of sand worth of biofine. :grin:
     
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  38. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Guffaw! Guffaw! :rofl: Yes, simpler is sometimes better, but adding enzymes is just 1 extra step and a low tech option that turns out to be a whole lot simpler than something like a decoction mash...I'll try it and hopefully score a very drinkable beer...we shall see

    btw...what is hop creep? I resemble that remark :grin:
     
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  39. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (187) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    Hop creep is a fall in gravity due to the diastatic action of enzymes found in some hops. There's a discussion of it here.
     
  40. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (730) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Where? ...Just read the/a BA article...wouldn't that make the beer stronger though? ...or result in having to mash your hops? :confused: