Capping on foam

Put it this way. I bet SN doesn't "cap on foam" for their pale ale. It's bottle conditioned and has a pretty lively shelf life. I'd concede any issue with this, but I'm pretty damn sure they don't foam up the bottles on purpose with the dose beer/priming sugar without purging the bottles. I highly doubt they agitate the beer before/white bottling it. O2 suppression caps or not.

 

IDK about SN specifically but any big brewer that is bottle conditioning will Spund the fermenter toward the end of fermentation to capture some of the CO2 and partially carbonate the beer, then dose it with priming sugar and put it in bottles and "fob" it (allow it to foam over) before capping on the foam.

Anyone else here old enough to remember the opening credits to Laverne and Shirley? Remember the full bottles foaming over on the bottling line? It's like that.

But that's CO2 coming out of solution, NOT atmospheric air purposely agitated into the already fermented beer at bottling, which is bad practice regardless of what a farmer with a Ph.D. says.

 

I will have to agree with the guy with the English translation from MI.

I have toured the bottling line at a few breweries that bottle condition. They do spund the beer in the brite tanks. Small amounts of sugar and yeast are added at bottling. Double CO2 purge on the bottle, fill, a shot of distilled deoxygenated water, cap on foam. The bottles go in the packages, then a room at about 70F for finishing, then the cold warehouse. They get the benefits of bottle conditioning without a big slug of yeast, just a thin film at the bottom.

Edit - Sierra Nevada is really diligent about getting the O2 levels in the beer as low as possible for a long shelf life.

Edit 2 - capped bottles look pretty foamy in the neck.

 

"1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 Schlemiel! Schlimazel! Hasenpfeffer Incorporated!"

 

if only the world knew your genius!

i live in a famous college town. we are lousy with phd's. ivy league ones too.

i know you. you have mastered your niche in chemistry and therefore know everything about everything all the time.

you don't. from what anyone can tell, you don't know what your talking about. but you keep right on, you're never wrong no matter the subject. a true delight. unfortunately, you really are in over your head here, and that is a tough spot, because we all know, you have a phd.

think back to when you had an open mind. i'll bet you are a great carpenter, can drive a truck, fly jets and are a gourmet chef too. at least, you could listen and learn.

seriously, i gotta go now. it's been fun.
Cheers.

 

Wow, you excel at being wrong. Please, though, continue to insult me and try to bully me, if that makes you feel better about yourself. Sorry, I just happen to be good at chemistry, and in particular, I know a fair amount about oxygen. I also like beer. But, I may stick that airplane thing on my cv the next time I edit it.

 

Re-reading this thread for some reason. It's been my favorite on the forum since the mysteriously deleted "credibility" thread and I'm just not ready for it to die yet. Please carry on.

 

Lots of ‘spirited’ discussion in this thread.

It has been mentioned in some of the threads but there is a BIG difference between bottling homebrewed beer and most commercial bottling; in homebrewing all of the carbonation is achieved via bottle conditioning. Most commercial breweries do not practice bottle conditioning and for breweries like Sierra Nevada they introduce a small amount of yeast at bottling to complete the carbonation. When I bottle my homebrewed beers I do not inoculate my beer with a small amount of yeast; I use the yeast that is already in the beer to get the job of bottle conditioning/carbonation done.

It has been mentioned in some posts that during bottle conditioning that “some” of the oxygen is consumed during the bottle conditioning process. In correspondence with a brewing scientist (M.S. in brewing science who works for a commercial brewery) he stated that 99.95% of the oxygen that is present in a homebrew bottle is consumed during the bottle conditioning/carbonation process. He cautioned me that there will be additional oxygen ingress in the bottle through the crown liner post the carbonation phase so there will always be oxidation occurring in homebrewed bottle conditioned beer: a combination of the 0.05% that is not consumed during carbonation and from the oxygen ingress post carbonation.

I personally would not advocate that during the bottling process that an individual should purposefully add extra air (oxygen) but it seems to me that the bottle conditioning/carbonation process has the ability to be somewhat ‘forgiving’ since oxygen is consumed as part of the secondary fermentation.

I personally will not question what @FarmerTed is reporting because at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding; if he is not perceiving the effects of oxidation in his bottled beers then the process works for him. Having stated that I would also not advise other homebrewers to agitate the pour of beer during the bottling process; minimizing the amount of air (oxygen) during bottling is a good practice overall.

Cheers!

 

I don't recall you using the word homebrew when quoting this guy before. I think people assumed he was referring to commercial bottling processes. If he actually said it about homebrew specifically, did he also bottle homebrew style and measure the results? To my knowledge nobody has, or if they have, they haven't published. If he didn't, he's guessing.

 

Me: “On a related matter I have been continually interested on the topic of oxygen reduction as part of the secondary fermentation aspect of homebrewing bottle conditioning. Are you aware of any papers which quantify this aspect? I would guess that an experiment which would quantify this would be to measure the DO prior to capping the beer and then measure the DO of the beer 2-3 weeks later (when the homebrewed beer is carbonated).

Brewing Scientist: “Yes, packaging your beer with yeast present will effectively prevent oxidative staling as long as the ingress isn't more than the yeast can effectively consume. Generally, that is the case.”

Me: “Does that statement mean that the yeast consumes all of the oxygen that existed in the homebrewed bottle of beer during secondary fermentation (bottle conditioning)?”

Brewing Scientist: “Not all, but probably something on the order of 99.95% of it.”

In later discussion

Brewing Scientist: “I should note though, the yeast taking up the headspace O2 and DO only applies when the yeast is still in suspension. Once it eats through the priming sugar and flocculates, it's ability to consume oxygen diffusing into the package diminishes because of all the beer the O2 has to go through to get to the yeast layer on the bottom; the O2 will probably react with something else before it reaches the yeast.”

So, there is still oxidation concerns post carbonation:” it's ability to consume oxygen diffusing into the package diminishes because of all the beer the O2 has to go through to get to the yeast layer on the bottom”

Cheers!

Edit: I wish that canning was practical/possible for homebrewing since that would eliminate the oxygen ingress problem that exists for homebrewed bottled beer (oxygen ingress through the crown liner).

 

Argumentum ab auctoritate.

 

Yeah, it really does seem like this is an issue that someone should really get some measured data. I'd be up for the attempt, but you know...life and all that.

 

veritas

 

“Yeah, it really does seem like this is an issue that someone should really get some measured data.” What makes you think that the brewing scientist (who conducts experiments for a living) doesn’t have measured data?

Cheers!

 

Jack,

I'm not saying he doesn't, but if I can't see the data for myself...

 

Maybe you will be able to see the data in an upcoming article in the Journal of the Institute of Brewing?

Cheers!

 

That would be most excellent.

 

If the yeast is in the anaerobic phase how much does it consume? The brewer I was on a tour with said about 1/3. That was John Mallet of Bells, to name names.

Jack, please acknowledge that some of us force carbonate in corny kegs and bottle from those kegs. A beer gun or counter pressure filler is used for that application.

 

This doen't sound like a statement based on experimental data, it sounds like some dudes opinion. The numbers I've heard from various people in the brewing industry are far lower than 99.95%, and they all agree that limiting dissolved oxygen at packaging is critical.

 

“Jack, please acknowledge that some of us force carbonate in corny kegs and bottle from those kegs.” Jeff, I fully recognize that you (and others) keg your beers and that it is possible to fill bottles from kegs.

My first post to this thread was in response to the numerous discussions between @FarmerTe and others. FarmerTed bottles his beers via bottle conditioning.

Cheers!