Cellaring Lambics Horizontally vs. Vertically

Has any consideration been giving to beer not being in a constant state while it is in a bottle? I am not a science person so correct me if I am wrong, however doesn't beer move while it is in the bottle at least at the molecular level? If so, could the amount of beer being exposed to oxygen, despite its storage angle, be about the same since the contents inside are not stagnant??

 

Jean Van Roy keeps his horizontally, so do I. He also recommends this numerous times on podcasts/in interviews.

 

My experince... Every Lambic brewery and blender stores bottles on their side. Even the Cantillon and 3F shipping boxes have the beer on their side. With extended aging on the side expect some percentage of these beers to end up 'corked'...an underlying flavor of cork in the beer. Leaving the bottles upright is ok but extended aging again may cause a cork to dry out thus carbonation loss and eventual quality loss>undrinkable. Of course your mileage may vary. Had a 1982 Cantillon Lambic that was stellar on it's side most of that time. Had a 2002 Girardin Gueuze last week to say farewell to Jan G.(RIP) and sadly it was corked.

The discussion should probably cover cork quality too... Final thoughts... Do what works for you.

 

They say you are supposed to store them upside down

 

Idea. Somebody get a few and store them both ways and then report back.

 

The headspace in bottles is usually purged before capping. Most breweries do this, and I assume lambic producers wouldn't be any different. Homebrewers do this to with either nitrogen tanks or simply letting the beer sit after bottling or before capping. The resting period allows CO2 to build up in the headspace before the cap is secured.

Anyone saying anything about how storage affects oxidation rates is blowing smoke. There is O2 dissolved in your system or introduced via the bottling procedure, but headspace is not an issue for most breweries.

I've also heard that horizontal storage of champagne affects the elasticity of the cork (making it less elastic and therefore a looser fit) and may allow pressure loss/oxidation. I contacted the organization that supposedly ran the study but haven't heard back. At this point, it's just speculation.

At this point, humidity of storage (keeping corks from drying out but preventing rusting of caps) is important. Temperature is important. Avoiding sunlight is important. Orientation of bottles (vertical or horizontal) is not very important.

 

I've been opening bottles of gueuze lately from 2007/2008 that were stored upright since I bought them five and six years ago and they are fine. The corks are not dried out and the gueuze is delicious. It's also really easy to keep the yeast out of the glass (which fucks up the taste of gueuze in my opinion). Maybe that will change as years turn into decades but I doubt my bottles will get that old anyway, I collect gueuze to have it on hand for drinking more than long term aging. I've also heard that five or six years is a sweet spot for most gueuze.

 

Oh yeah, I'm in Colorado and it is arid as fuck here and the corks weren't dried out.

 

Funny, you too? I tried that months ago. It's too bad, I'd really like to see what they did. There's just no documentation on it at all.

 

Does anyone have access to the library system at UC Davis? They have the periodical containing the original publication of the study (Feb 1996 issue of Le Vigneron Champenois) in their Viticulture and Enology collection.

 

Looks like jedwards may be on to something....I sent the group two emails and even tried having someone from Belgium give them a call, but no dice.

I think studies regarding champagne storage are more relevant to beer than regular wine due to the pressure gradient and cork requirements, but I'm not the kind of person who would cellar a beer for 10 years and see if the cork got squishy and allowed CO2 to escape. And it obviously has a ton to do with the quality of cork used, which I know nothing about!

 

I know a few grads but no one who's actually there. I could try to get access to it through Stanford, maybe they have a lending system.

EDIT: No dice. Does anyone know the title of the paper?

 

Also, it'd be nice to know if the corks in the study are the organic type or the new inorganic ones. Stu, make sure to let us the definitively in 10 or 15 years the results of your experiment.

 

Man it'd be awesome if people stopped passing along hearsay like it's fact.

 

What do you think is occupying that space in the bottle that's not made of beer?

 

Assuming you meant vertical, no. Positive pressure in the bottle will keep the moisture level high in the cork.

If you meant horizontal, the reverse is true.

 

After the yeast are done metabolizing, it's probably mostly nitrogen, CO2, and a bit of argon. Hopefully no oxygen left.

Regarding bottle orientation in Cantillon (at least using the mid-90s-through-2012 corks)... storing them on their side results in a soaked cork with creepy gunk between the cork and the cap, upright results in a dried-out cork. The sideways bottles are always delicious though.

 

Hey guys. Been lurking on here a while and finally got on board. I wrote an article on this not too long ago, though it wasn't specific to lambics and it can be found here http://beerdrinkerssociety.com/2013/01/24/beer-101-beer-cellaring-part-ii-up-or-down/
I did a lot of research for this so hopefully it will answer some questions.

 

Thanks domtronzero.
I know the OP wanted experiences on the differences in cellaring lambics specifically. Unfortunately I cannot comment to much on lambics yet, but I have not tasted much difference in other beers stored both upright and horizontally. I am convinced so far that it's really 6 of one, half dozen of the other. I can't imagine lambics would behave vastly different from other beers in how they are stored.
Pmoney, how are you currently storing your lambics? Are you experimenting with storage orientation currently?