Cheapest way to start lagering

Got snow and a big bucket that you can put a keg in?

 

The ‘classic’ temperature for lagering is right around freezing. This was approximately the temperature in the ice caves in Germany when they produced lagers prior to mechanical refrigeration being developed.

John Palmer in his online book How to Brew discusses varying lagering temperatures (and associated lagering timeframes per temperature):

“Nominal lagering times are 3 - 4 weeks at 45°F, 5 - 6 weeks at 40°F, or 7 - 8 weeks at 35°F.”

So it is entirely appropriate to lager at temperature much warmer than freezing (32°F) and if you are in a hurry there can be a benefit to doing that.

You are indeed correct that there is a rule of thumb to lager higher gravity beers (e.g., a Doppelbock) for a longer timeframe then a moderate gravity beer (e.g., a Pilsner). The rule of thumb is 1 week of lagering per 2° Plato. Per this rule of thumb, a Doppelbock of OG = 18 Plato should be lagered for over 2 months.

Cheers!

 

Are you talking about lager fermentation or lagering (cold storage)? They are two separate steps.

I start fermentation between 46-48F, letting rise to 50F. Then a diacetyl rest in the mid 60's when attenuation has almost finished, until it is finished.

After racking to secondary (keg), I lager at about 38F.

 

In terms of the "ramp down" in temperature, this really depends. Myself, I allow the beer to finish completely at primary fermentation temp, skip a diacetyl rest (never found that I needed one), and cold crash the beer to lagering temps. So there is no real ramp-down, basically it is a cold crash that is extended for a long period of time.

However, based on what I've read (mainly from this website: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers - see the figure about halfway down), German brewers tend to do a slow, gradual decrease in temperature starting about halfway through primary fermentation with the goal of keeping yeast active while simultaneously approaching lagering temps. I've never attempted such a bold maneuver, mainly out of fear that my yeast will crap out once the beer gets too cold. I think you really gotta be on top of your game to pull off something like that.

 

Lagering temperature does not change according to beer style: a pils or a doppelbock can be lagered at the same temp. But, as others have said, the amount of time necessary does change according to a beer's OG, with one week per 2 degrees Plato being the rule of thumb. FWIW my usual thing is to do 'one week per 2 degrees' at about 35F, then take it down to 32 for another week or two.

The dropping of the temperature, from the fermentation temp to lagering, needs to be spread across a period of several days, dropping about 3 degrees per day. You don't want to cold crash the yeast. I imagine 3 degrees per day is on the conservative side, but as with many things about brewing, it doesn't pay to rush.

All of which brings me to my only complaint about lager brewing: With my equipment, I can only do about four per year, and they tend to go quickly! Maybe I'll have to expand...

 

I do exactly the same as evantwomey in terms of ‘ramp down’:

“I allow the beer to finish completely at primary fermentation temp, skip a diacetyl rest (never found that I needed one), and cold crash the beer to lagering temps. So there is no real ramp-down, basically it is a cold crash that is extended for a long period of time.”

Cheers!

 

I have no “side-by-side” experience that I can relate to you. When I first started homebrewing lagers (1997) I used to do the slow ramp down thing. Lately (last 5-10 years or so) I have been doing the ‘cold crash’ method. All of my lagers have turned out fine either way.

As a ‘reminder’, from the Bill Pierce article that I sent you a link to:

“Some brewing texts recommend slowly reducing the temperature by no more than 5 °F (3 °C) per day until the temperature is at the desired setting for lagering. However, many homebrewers ignore this advice and achieve excellent results. There is agreement that in order to achieve the maximum effect the lagering needs to be done cold, with the temperature no more than 40 °F (5 °C).”

I concur with Bill 100% (based upon my personal homebrewing experience) that you can indeed obtain excellent results by not conducting a ramp down.

Cheers!

 

I don't see thy you would need to ramp down either. Palmer seems to agree and from his talks, the lagering process (near freezing) doesn't have anything to do with yeast but just speeds up the process of dropping out proteins and other compounds.

Maybe when working with barrels/large quantities of beer you might freeze parts if you try to drop the bulk too fast. Just guessing there.

 

I'm not sure that I have the same take-away as you. Or maybe I'm putting words in your mouth- not my intentions. My apologizes if I am.

I don't feel that all three scenarios will yield the same beer. IIRC, the importance of the length of time is to insure that what ever has bonded and dropped out will not go back into solution once warmed. It's my hunch that since more _things_ bond at lower temps, you need a longer time for the chemical reaction to occur and become stable.

I'm going to listen to Palmes talk on TBN and see if I can get more answers. But here is more of the quote:

The lagering temperature and duration are affected by both the primary fermentation temperature and the yeast strain. These are the four primary factors that determine the final character of the beer. Some general guidelines for fermentation times and temperatures are listed below:

1. Check the yeast package information for recommended fermentation temperature(s).
2. The temperature difference between the primary phase and the lager phase should be roughly 10°F.
3. Nominal lagering times are 3 - 4 weeks at 45°F, 5 - 6 weeks at 40°F, or 7 - 8 weeks at 35°F.
4. Stronger beers need to be lagered longer.
5. Nothing is absolute. Brewing is both a science and an art.

A common question is, "If the beer will lager faster at higher temperatures, why would anyone lager at the low temperature?" Two reasons: first, in the days before refrigeration when lager beers were developed, icehouses were the common storage method - it's tradition. Second, the colder lagering temperatures seem to produce a smoother beer than warmer temperatures. This would seem to be due to the additional precipitation and settling of extraneous proteins (like chill haze) and tannins that occur at lower temperatures.

 

“Second, the colder lagering temperatures seem to produce a smoother beer than warmer temperatures.” The word “seem” is not very scientific but it may be true.

I have no studies or other scientific studies to confirm things one way or another but it seems very clear to me that John Palmer clearly states that less lagering time is needed at warmer temperatures (e.g., 45°F) vs. colder temperatures (e.g.,35°F).

I noted your previous post concerning lagering is not a yeast induced process but I am personally not convinced on this topic. I can envision yeast processes as being part & parcel of the overall lagering process and warmer lagering temperatures would encourage that aspect. Yeast activity is certainly part of the AB lagering process wrt Budweiser per Kai Troester on braukaiser.com:

“Anheuser Bush for instance produces Budweiser with only one week of primary fermentation and 3 weeks of secondary/lagering. The key to this is their Beechwood ageing process where the porosity of the beechwood allows for a greater contact area between the yeast, which flocculated onto the beechwood strips, and the beer resulting in a shorter maturation time.”

Cheers!

 

It's my opinion that the Palmer references are a bit out dated. He seems to be a proponent of cold-conditioning at 30-32*F. If its a concern to someone there might be some clarification in the latter part of the show. I stopped about 2/3 through it.

Here are my notes from just listing to 40 minutes of the lagering show on TBN. If anyone wants to listen to the show and feels that I've mis-represented an issue, feel free to note the time and respond. But I think that I'm pretty accurate in my notes.

~~~~

30-32 *F cold conditioning is an added step to the two steps w/ale- early fermentation where by-products are made & later step where the yeast clean up by-products. Additional step is for clarification. Difference between an ale and lager fermentation is the temps are driven down to suppress esters formation - less to clean up and less ester character. Lower pitch temp 44* is important to lessen pre-cursors. Let rise to 50* for fermentation. Raise again for rest (second step). Some chat about under-pitching vs over pitching and proper temps. You cannot Lager and overcome extreme amounts of the off flavor compounds. Yeast are doing very little at the lower temps (30-32*F) and it's not the point of lagering. Ales can be lagered.
[16:51]ads[22:45]
If fermentation is correct, you can crash cool to 30*F. Purpose is to drop yeast and drop haze. Looking for clarity. Chat about dropping temps. The historical reason for the slow process in dropping temps is to keep the yeast working longer - the need to do this was due to not a total understanding how to get proper fermentation. Yeast activity is no longer needed for cold conditioning. [25:00] Taste your beer to see if yeast have cleaned up. Yeast will work better and clean up at warmer temps. [26:45] Discussion about yeast viability and carbonation. If not force-carbonating you'll need to add yeast. 20 bil cells/ 5gal or 1 bil/liter. Must be active yeast and add at 60*F. If you have high yeast load- be careful not to freeze.
[29:26]
Permanent haze formation - colder that you can get the beer the more you can get the protein and polyphenol haze to settle out. Colder temps help proteins increase in size.
[32:10]
Flavor is cleaner at a month or two [I assume at cold conditioning temp]. Clarification - polyphenols will complex and drop out. They have possible astringency, have bitterness. Esterification of fusel alcohol. Some small degree of yeast activity. Main difference is reduction of polyphenol load in the beer. [insert stupid Jamil joke. ] Chat about esters. Chat about that after cold conditioning particles will continue to drop out and this phenomenon effect on head retention and bubble size. Chat about particles in dark malt continuing to drop out.
[40:20]ads[45:20]
Ales - High gravity beers - wrap-up. I have a headache - a lot of show left.

 

Thank you for taking the time to perform a transcription of the John Palmer talk on TBN. I fully recognize that this is not an easy task. I did something similar in the past for a discussion on a Basic Brewing podcast. I hope to take a listen on the John Palmer talk but I am not sure when that will happen.

In the absence of listening to the John Palmer talk permit me to make a few comments:

· I personally do not have an opinion that lagering at cold temperatures (e.g., 32°F) is a ‘bad’ thing. Obviously people have brewed good lagers doing this.
· I agree that part of the lagering process is the precipitation aspects of getting protein, polyphenols, etc. to settle out
· I do not think that as part of lagering that yeast processes are not involved. I think that yeast is still doing ‘stuff’ albeit at a slow rate due to the cold temperature.

Below is a post made on another forum which summarizes my personal thoughts on the overall lagering process:

“Here's an explanation of lagering, for example:
When the beer is conditioned at low temperatures various processes take place that lead to the smooth character which is expected from a lager:
Proteins and polyphenols (tannins) form agglomerations (basically bind with each other to form larger molecules) which become insoluble and precipitate out of solution. [Nguyen 2007]
Hop polyphenols will drop out leading to milder hop bitterness
Yeast sediment which cleans up the beer and removes the yeasty smell and taste associated with young beer
Some of the alcohols and acids form esters in the beer which leads to new flavor compounds. This process is very slow and becomes only significant after more than 12 weeks [Narziss 2005].
Some yeast activity may be present which leads to further clean-up and extract reduction of the beer. I oftentimes see another extract drop of 0.1 - 0.2 Plato over the course of a few weeks.

Conditioning and maturation are the same thing. Lagering is also a form of conditioning, but done cold usually following a fermentation by lager yeast.”

The above quoted material comes from:http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/cold-conditioning-vs-warm-conditioning-what-science-341597/

I am still of the opinion that an excellent lager beer can be produced by lagering at temperatures warmer than freezing. I am also of the opinion that the yeast processes that occur during lagering occur at a quicker rate for warmer temperatures (e.g., 38-40°F).

Cheers!

 

my first lagering fridge was a converted dorm fridge. the fridge was free. i pulled the cold plate down to the side (carefully), cut out a 3 inch opening on top and glued a piece of 3" PVC. the airlock fit the PVC chimney and a 5 gallon carboy cleared just right. stuffed some insulation into the PVC.

maybe $5. ugly as hell, but it worked. you'll still want a cheap temp controller though.
Cheers.

 

Your welcome. And yes please do listen, because I've somewhat just posted sound bites. I don't think that I properly convey a few points.

Yes I agree with all that you posted and I think that Palmer does too. It seems that a new definition has been made for "lagering". That being cold storage at near freezing. And truthfully if you listen to the show it's almost like they should of called it "The Cold Conditioning Show". I'm not sure that Palmer has renamed it. I don't know, sometimes we Americans seem to get wrapped up with these side issues.

Anyway - I think the biggest takeaway is Palmer's concept of three distinct stages. And that you don't/shouldn't need to start the third until the yeast have cleaned up their mess. With new information that lead to cold pitching during the early stage of growth there shouldn't be much to clean up. So yes if the brewer feels the need to have additional cleaning while they lager, then take the dropping in increments approach.