Chocolate: Flameout vs Secondary (Breakfast Stout)

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Jeffries55, Jul 20, 2014.

Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jeffries55

    Jeffries55 Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2013 New York

    I know this is late (just started the mash), I really dropped the ball on doing my research on this one, but last time I brewed a breakfast stout and the overall consensus was that it needed more chocolate to round out the coffee.

    Last time I added 2 oz Cocoa Nibs & 2 Oz bakers chocolate at flameout, whirlpool for 15 minutes, then emptied to primary. Because I was in a hurry to get the beer ready for a party last time, I only let it set on an additional 2 oz of each in the secondary for about 6 days... this time around, I'm thinking of nixing the addition at flameout and adding all 4 oz to the secondary, and aging for 30-60 days. Thoughts / experience on how to get more chocolate?
     
  2. DrMindbender

    DrMindbender Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2014 South Carolina

    I'd go with 4oz in secondary...but splitting it up with 1oz at flame out and putting 3oz in secondary will give a little more complex flavors. In my house coffee, chocolate RIS, I have been adding small amounts of cacao nibs at various stages of boil to test its bitterness and have found adding it around 15 minutes left to boil and then at flameout add slight bitterness and a darker chocolate flavor while adding to secondary adds richness and smooth chocolately flavor. Adding it early in the boil doesn't give as much bitterness, IMO, as adding it around 15 to go. I've been getting great nibs from Night Owl in upstate SC... http://www.nightowlchocolate.com/cocoa-nibs.html They have a very good flavor, have always been fresh and produce some great brews. Its like $18 for a pound delivered, which is much better than I can find elsewhere.
     
    Jeffries55 likes this.
  3. Jeffries55

    Jeffries55 Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2013 New York

    ^For the record, since I didn't mention before but I'm sure it was assumed, this is for 5 gallons.

    Thanks for the advice, I like the idea of doing 1 oz of each at flameout or 15 minutes left, and weighting the addition a bit heavier towards the secondary. I've read a few things that some people melt the chocolate prior to adding it at flameout; the last time I added at flameout, the chocolate was mostly intact, so it's possible it really didn't do much?
     
    DrMindbender likes this.
  4. DrMindbender

    DrMindbender Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2014 South Carolina

    I do 5 gallon batches, to clarify also. I put my cacao nibs in hops bags with the hops additions and I put it in a hops bag with my coffee at flameout for 20-30 minutes. I add it straight to the secondary along with any dry hops I might be using for that recipe. I've toned down my coffee to 2 oz from 4 oz and upped my cacao nibs to around 1 1/2 oz during/after boil and 3 1/2 oz during secondary from 4 oz in secondary only...the beer has gotten a better rounded flavor and comes out with a rich creamy brown mule popsicle flavor (I also add oats and lactose to most batches). My only experience is with nibs and not the bakers chocolate, btw.
     
    Jeffries55 likes this.
  5. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Pooh-Bah (2,564) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia
    Pooh-Bah

    Don't boil nibs, it's like boiling coffee. Gross.

    I do a chocolate porter that has dutched powder added to boil around 10 minutes.

    I've in the past, added the nibs right as primary fermentation is ending, but still finishing up. I don't feel any need to secondary anyways. You want as much contact time on the cocoa that made it into the fermenter, as well as the nibs. If you want coffee, I'd add crush up some whole beans and add then when you are happy with the chocolate flavor/aroma, as the coffee won't take long to extract and will be fresh for packaging.
     
  6. andy4523

    andy4523 Initiate (0) Jul 20, 2014 New Jersey

    For a full chocolate flavor, I would go and add any cocoa powder or chocolate bars with 10 mins left in the boil to boil off any fats contained within. Nibs are better off in secondary for a well-rounded chocolate finish.
     
  7. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Pooh-Bah (2,564) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia
    Pooh-Bah


    You won't be boiling off any fats, I assure you. Thats the reason you don't use chocolate that has a ton of fat left in it. It will affect head retention, as well as possibly going rancid.
     
  8. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,958) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah

    Where does the fat go when you "boil it off"?
     
  9. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Nibs have about as much fat in them as baker's chocolate (i.e. a lot). Cocoa powder has very little fat comparatively.
     
  10. andy4523

    andy4523 Initiate (0) Jul 20, 2014 New Jersey

    I was referring to the soluble fats found in chocolate bars, and the intended purpose is to prevent any fats inhibiting head foam formation. But any adjuncts I'm slightly uncertain of, that I grab off grocery shelves, I typically add in with 10 mins left in the boil. ie. citrus peels/rinds, hazlenuts
     
  11. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Pooh-Bah (2,564) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia
    Pooh-Bah


    Fat is not soluble in water, so if you add any fats to a beer, they won't be going anywhere unless you chill it down and scrape it from the top.
     
    wspscott and VikeMan like this.
  12. DrMindbender

    DrMindbender Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2014 South Carolina

    Cacao nibs can add a unique bitterness compared to hops. Very similar to hops, the earlier you add them to the boil, the more bitterness is extracted. Ive read a few articles on their bittering properties and experimented enough to know when I like to add nibs for the flavor I'm looking for. I see nothing wrong with adding them to the boil when using them to bitter a beer instead of going for the full on chocolate flavor.
     
    FATC1TY likes this.
  13. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Pooh-Bah (2,564) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia
    Pooh-Bah


    To each his own. You know what YOU like to get from them when boiling them. There's someone new asking about using them. Chances are he doesn't know the level of acrid bitterness he will get when using them in the boil. Might ruin his recipe even if he's not planning for it. I've used nibs everywhere in the process, even in the mash.

    For what it's worth, most people go for nibs to get a full on chocolate flavor, not to get any extra bitterness from them, and you never mention as a caveat that boiling them with your advice, will lead to extraction of bitter tannins from the nibs. Hence the reason I said to not boil them for someone asking about getting a chocolate flavor.
     
  14. DrMindbender

    DrMindbender Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2014 South Carolina

    Sure man, thought my earlier response handled all that ok without interjected too much extra.
     
  15. koopa

    koopa Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2008 New Jersey

    I agree with the previous comments about likening cocoa powder or nibs added during the boil vs. secondary to late hop additions vs. dry hopping additions. I also like to add cocoa powder late in the boil and nibs on the "cool side" myself.

    P.S. If you want to get more aroma potential out of the "cool side" cocoa nib addition, try soaking them in a few oz of neutral spirit for about a week prior to adding them. Then pitch the neutral spirit into either the secondary or the keg itself. The higher abv of the neutral spirit should do a better job extracting aroma compounds than the beer itself would.
     
  16. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    The point is that if you add fat to your wort or beer, you'll have fat. It doesn't boil away. If you don't want fat, add your chocolate in a form that doesn't have much fat.
     
  17. jncastillo87

    jncastillo87 Initiate (0) Jan 27, 2013 Texas

    DrMindbender likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.