Cold Steeping Roasted Grains

Funny thing Jack...I've actually never measured. I've done plenty of testing on pale beers since i'm about 250 ppm bicarbonates, but never tested on anything darker than a red. So basically i'm 1 tbsp 85% phosphoric (per 10 gal) with pale grain bill, ~2 tsp with amber-red, 1 tsp. in the brown, and nothing in the porter-stout realm. Never measured those final two categories

 

@JackHorzempa @telejunkie
Remember that you can have high alkalinity that when coupled with high hardness (Ca and Mg) will result in a good pH for certain beers. Burton on Trent is a good example, the RA is about 0, works well for Pale beers.

Not enough hardness, add acid as Dave is doing.

Some breweries around here really go through the 85% phosphoric.

 

Dave, if you ever decide to measure the mash pH of your next batch of Stout I would be interested in seeing that value.

I have read/heard that dark beers benefit from having a higher pH (e.g., 5.4 - 5.7). With my highly alkaline water and modest water adjustments I have yet to achieve that range above. I just ordered some pickling lime to use for my next batch of Oatmeal Stout with the hope of getting something like 5.5 for this next batch.

Cheers!

 

Great point hopfen...I'm bicarbonate heavy with only 3 ppm sulfates

will do Jack...I'm scheduled to brew an export stout next, not sure when I'll actually get around to it, but hoping over the holidays.

 

I'm not sure why you mentioned sulfates, but they don't affect mash pH. The only things in your base water that will affect mash pH are Total Alkalinity, Calcium, and Magnesium. When @hopfenunmaltz mentioned Burton water, he was pointing out high Ca/Mg (and not the sulfates that Burton water is famous for).

 

I understand...but isn't the Ca & Mg levels so high in Burton waters from the gypsum? Ca & Mg need to come associated with an anion...at least that's the science i know. If it's not bicarbonates...gypsum is a common one for water. Obviously chloride is another source.

"and not the sulfates that Burton water is famous for"
Burton is pretty well know for its sulfates, sometimes to a fault...sometimes referred to as the Burton snatch. As far as my understanding goes...the Ca & Mg from the gypsum in Burton water helps precipitate the bicarbonates, creating a low RA value. So in the case of Burton water, the sulfate levels are important.

 

Yes, the high Ca is from calcium sulfate (gypsum) in the sandstone.

Yep.

Yes, (bi)carbonates, sulfate, chloride, and hydroxide ions all do the trick.

Sort of. If you pre-boil the water, CO2 is driven off, causing CaCO3 to precipitate. But if you don't pre-boil, Ca (and Mg) in the mash react with phosphate in the malt, making protons (H+) which offset anions, thus lowering RA (but not precipitating bicarbonates per se).

I'd say they are along for the ride (from a pH/hardness/RA standpoint), but I see where you're coming from now.

 

No, I do mean sandstone. It contains the gypsum deposits. Limestone is mostly calcium carbonate.

 

Right on the limestone, but sandstone is primarily quartz or feldspar — silicates.

 

I was referring to the sandstone at Burton on Trent. There are veins (or whatever they're called) of gypsum running through it.

 

I was subsequently reflecting that gypsum is an evaporite and it makes some sense that it would form in pockets amidst sandy areas that morph into sandstone. Retraction submitted.

 

It is the Mercia Marl (mudstone) that has the veins of gypsum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercia_Mudstone_Group#Blue_Anchor_Formation

 

Hmmm. I was pretty sure I hadn't imagined a sandstone/gypsum connection, so I went looking just now...
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/wUDIO48E7p/
https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/geologic-column-beers-secret-ingredient-geology

OTOH, Wikipedia has the biggest peer review body on the planet, so I don't doubt that it's correct.

 

I attended a presentation that Martin Brungard gave at NHC 2013 on the water of Burton.

John Palmer provides a nice summary:

“The character of Burton water changed significantly over the years as the city grew and more breweries started drawing on the groundwater. Martin Brungard, an expert in brewing-water chemistry, gave an insightful presentation at the 2013 National Homebrewers Conference in Philadelphia, titled “Historic Water.” Brungard explained the local geology of the region, describing how Burton sits on an alluvial sand and gravel basin along the River Trent that is underlain by a “Mercia Mudstone” layer, containing high levels of gypsum and chalk, which is in turn underlain by sandstone. The result of this geology is that the mineral composition of well water would be a mixture of the low-mineral river water with the high-mineral water welling up through the mudstone, and the proportions depend on the proximity to the river and depth to the mudstone layer.”

Cheers!

 

I knew that term, Mercia Mudstone, from a talk by Martin Brungard at NHC.

 

All this talk of Mercia makes me think of Edwin, Earl of Mercia. To be completely honest with you, I'm not a huge fan of the way he conducted himself during the invasions in 1066. Harold had to come up north to fend off Harald Hardrada and Tostig, and then Edwin didn't accompany him back south to fight William (not sure why not). Subsequently Edwin did not effectively oppose William, although ultimately he rebelled and was killed while fleeing to Scotland.

All of that said, Edwin's defects as a leader do not necessarily detract from the qualities of the water of Mercia for brewing purposes, so if you enjoy using Burton-style water, by all means continue to do so.

 

Completely by coincidence, I came across a poem (or I guess series of poems?) by Geoffrey Hill called "Mercian Hymns." You can read some of them at the Poetry Foundation (link). I like them quite a bit, although if you're just getting into Hill I think a better place to start is "An Apology for the Revival of Christian Architecture in England" (link).

There are some passages in "Mercian Hymns" that support @VikeMan's observations about sandstone in Mercia. The very first line of the poem refers to "riven sandstone." And here is Mercian Hymn VI:

The princes of Mercia were badger and raven. Thrall to
their freedom, I dug and hoarded. Orchards fruited
above clefts. I drank from honeycombs of chill sand-
stone.

'A boy at odds in the house, lonely among brothers.' But I,
who had none, fostered a strangeness; gave myself to
unattainable toys.

Candles of gnarled resin, apple-branches, the tacky mistle-
toe. 'Look' they said and again 'look.' But I ran slowly;
the landscape flowed away, back to its source.

In the schoolyard, in the cloakrooms, the children boasted
their scars of dried snot; wrists and knees garnished with
impetigo.

Note the reference to "chill sandstone." Here is Mercian Hymn XII, which doesn't really mention the brewing water, but does refer to the brewing practices in Mercia:

Their spades grafted through the variably-resistant soil.
They clove to the hoard. They ransacked ephiphanies,
vertebrae of the chimera, armour of wild bees' larvae.
They struck the fire-dragon's faceted skin.

The men were paid to caulk water-pipes. They brewed and
pissed amid splendour; their latrine seethed its estuary
through nettles. They are scattered to your collations,
moldywarp.

It is autumn. Chestnut-boughs clash their inflamed leaves.
The garden festers for attention: telluric cultures enriched
with shards, corms, nodules, the sunk solids of gravity.
I have raked up a golden and stinking blaze.

"They brewed and/pissed amid splendour." Something for all of us to aspire to.

Finally here is Mercian Hymn XX, and finally we get a reference to the marl that @hopfenunmaltz mentioned above:

Primeval heathland spattered with the bones of mice and
birds; where adders basked and bees made provision,
mantling the inner walls of their burh:

Coiled entrenched England: brickwork and paintwork
stalwart above hacked marl. The clashing primary
colours — 'Ethandune', 'Catraeth', 'Maldon', 'Pengwern'.
Steel against yew and privet. Fresh dynasties of smiths.

I think it's pretty cool that you can use poetry to reconstruct the brewing water of a region (albeit not very precisely in this case). Anyway just to repeat a point I made above, whether or not this poetry is your cup of tea shouldn't necessarily influence your decision about whether to imitate the mineral content of Burton water when formulating your recipes. You can enjoy a Burton-style pale ale without particularly caring for Hill's poetry, and vice versa.

 

Have you seen @TheBeerery's setup?

 

Oh yes, that's what I took the line about "unattainable toys" to be referring to.