Counterfeit Cantillon John Chris Nomad

Discussion in 'Trade Talk' started by JealousChalice, Jun 11, 2012.

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  1. rvdoorn

    rvdoorn Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2009 Netherlands

    Interesting..... but as far as I know (but maybe somebody can jump in), cantillon doesn't use corks from different years. Again, can it be an option that the 2011 bottles are indeed counterfeit, while people think they are not, and therefore ended up in this list as "real"? Again, all our bottles come from the source for sure. I wait now for Dons answer, he also got bottles at the source.
    Think I will send Jean another email again tomorrow
     
  2. BigTomZ

    BigTomZ Initiate (0) Apr 14, 2009 Virginia

    If I were going to put in the effort to copy something, it would be more profitable than any beer could be. That being said, I'm sure there are people out there happy to aim lower than I would.
     
  3. alcstradamus

    alcstradamus Initiate (0) Aug 10, 2008 Iowa

    **counterfeiter preps 2010 Classic Gueuze bottles and corner rounding knife**
     
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  4. jedwards

    jedwards Initiate (136) Feb 3, 2009 California

    They have, though that doesn't necessarily mean that's the case here. I have bottles of the early 2011 batch of Rose with a 2011 date stamped on the rear label and a 2010 cork in the top -- I'm guessing they just use up however many corks of the prior year they've got.. Since JCN was bottled in January 2011 I wouldn't be surprised if there were mixed corks.

    Ideally, the person who traded this bottle to JealousChalice would be clarifying where these bottles were sourced from.
     
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  5. digita7693

    digita7693 Initiate (0) Jan 19, 2010 Germany

    It is Jean Chris Nomad 2011, as you can clearly see on the back of the label, it was bottled on January 7th 2011, as per the back of the label as well, but the cork might say 2010, I am not going downstairs again:slight_smile: Busy watching the ukraine vs sweden match.
     
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  6. rvdoorn

    rvdoorn Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2009 Netherlands

    ok thanks for jumping in. In that case my statement about the cork bottle date was pre-mature, and maybe completely wrong. So indeed, now the OP should jump in to explain what is the source of the fake bottle!
     
  7. rvdoorn

    rvdoorn Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2009 Netherlands

    Me too, but had some of the corks here :slight_smile: Nice match by the way, what was your prediction in our BA football poule? :sunglasses:
     
  8. BearsOnAcid

    BearsOnAcid Savant (950) Mar 17, 2009 Washington

    Doesn't Cantillon leave their bottles to condition without labels on them? I imagine the corks represent the exact bottling year and then the labels are dated later for a release. It's just a thought I had since I've had mixed dates between labels and corks before but I've never had mixed corks for the same release.
     
  9. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (716) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    People create counterfeits of stuff like $10 CD's and $100 sunglasses. A $300 beer is well within range.
     
  10. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) Feb 22, 2011 California

    I'd like to try that too, even though I can't compare because I'm not as internet-sexy as you are.
     
  11. digita7693

    digita7693 Initiate (0) Jan 19, 2010 Germany

    i picked ukraine 1-0...

    and I agree, sadly I am not surprised people are faking this either, as cbeer said fake cds to sell for $10, here there is a much bigger profit. :slight_frown:
     
  12. rvdoorn

    rvdoorn Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2009 Netherlands

    you will probably take the first spot.... I said 1-0 for sweden and I think erik as well.

    I will send Jean an email tomorrow about the cork issue though.
     
  13. largadeer

    largadeer Poo-Bah (3,866) Sep 24, 2006 California
    Society

    I opened my bottle of Nomad last weekend, to me it was very obviously different than fresh Classic Gueuze. More vinous, tannic and dry.
     
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  14. Mar02x

    Mar02x Zealot (593) Aug 29, 2011 Netherlands

    Fair deal - you have my respect Chris.
     
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  15. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) Feb 22, 2011 California

    That doesn't necessarily matter. It depends on how much margin each item has and then how many you can sell. Because the rare beer market is so small fakes could easily start to dominate it and then implode it if too many people faked, and even one forger could collapse the market for a beer, so you'd need to be careful. (It's the same with currency, and why forgery of major currencies isn't really an issue, there are too few counterfeits for it to matter. But it can matter, and has.)
     
    crusian likes this.
  16. Domeshot14

    Domeshot14 Initiate (0) Jul 10, 2011 California

    People still buy cd's?
     
  17. metalgdog

    metalgdog Initiate (0) Dec 17, 2010 New York

    I had a bottle of Nomad about a month ago at Moeder Lambic and 100% agree with largadeer that it is different than Classic for the same reasons. It is also much softer and less acetic on the palate.
     
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  18. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (716) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    Yes, that would happen, but IMO the beer black market thus far is only safe thanks to the obscurity of the hobby. Ultimately the fraudsters don't care about ruining the market so long as they get their own buck first. Then they'll just move on to something else.

    As I said earlier though, I firmly believe this problem is already out there, it's just borderline impossible to catch. Think about the average person who would drop $150 on a Black Tuesday - it's a noob who hears the choo-choo of the hype train and clicks "buy it now". Are they really going to realize it's just WWS with bourbon in that bottle when they have probably tried all of 2 other barrel aged stouts in their life? Of course not - it tastes good, it's a strong stout with bourbon flavor, and the label says Black Tuesday.
     
  19. pittsburghkid66

    pittsburghkid66 Initiate (0) Dec 24, 2009 Indiana

    Thank god you said that. I checked my bottles and they seemed to have the correct labels but they have the 2010 cork. I was hoping someone would post that, because I was afraid to ask. Thanks.
     
    phishisphunk likes this.
  20. rvdoorn

    rvdoorn Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2009 Netherlands

    Agree, but this happens not only when you press " buy now" but also in trades, as we just noticed (check the original post, the OP got this bottle via a trade).
     
  21. crusian

    crusian Crusader (778) May 14, 2010 Oregon

    good read, thanks for that!
     
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  22. BearsOnAcid

    BearsOnAcid Savant (950) Mar 17, 2009 Washington

    The OP said he got the bottle via trade but didn't say how the person he dealt with got it other than it was from someone in Belgium. It could've been from an ebay purchase.
     
  23. rvdoorn

    rvdoorn Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2009 Netherlands

    Doesn't change the fact that one can obtain counterfeit bottles via trades as well :slight_smile: Lets hope, and assume, this is an exception. I would be surprised if the counterfeit bottle was made in Europe though. Here we don't have such a hyped beer market as in the USA, and IMO, it is hardly known that bottles can be worth several 100's of euros. But, who knows
     
  24. JealousChalice

    JealousChalice Initiate (0) Feb 28, 2011 California

    ^^^ genuine IMO
     
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  25. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) Feb 22, 2011 California

    I thought people had said that was fine. My guess is that they used multiple corks, which they've been known to do.

    Yeah I loved that article and was glad something came up where I could link it.
     
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  26. NarcoSolo

    NarcoSolo Initiate (0) Jan 1, 2012 Pennsylvania

    The label looks legit at least. The letters are nice and crisp, and the gradient in 'chris' looks like the real sample from the last set of photos.

    My guess is this whole thing is overblown. Every BA with a JCN is going over their bottle, but in reality there are probably (hopefully) very few fakes out there.
     
  27. BearsOnAcid

    BearsOnAcid Savant (950) Mar 17, 2009 Washington

    Not doubting that this can happen through a trade I just like to think that traders are a little more respectable than that.

    I've noticed many rare beers selling for hundreds on Ebay for years now from European sellers so I wouldn't immediately cancel them out of the equation. It should be even easier to create a fake over there than here.
     
  28. BeRanger

    BeRanger Initiate (0) Dec 11, 2011 Michigan

    I'm willing to sample both and let you know.
     
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  29. rvdoorn

    rvdoorn Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2009 Netherlands

    True, but for European Ebayers it is also relatively easy to obtain most of these bottles, so less need to counterfeit IMO. I am pretty sure it takes more time and effort to counterfeit bottles, than to drive to e.g. Chris to buy a whole bunch of bottles for example.

    Anyhow, about the corks, I will contact cantillon about that and post the answer here.
     
  30. cpferris

    cpferris Initiate (56) Jan 22, 2008 Indiana

    All my bottles are also have 2011 cork dates and none of them have the label flaws discussed in this thread. So I am optimistic that they did, in fact us a variety of corks.
     
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  31. MaltMilkshake

    MaltMilkshake Initiate (0) Feb 9, 2011 California

    How much would one expect to clear per bottle under your method above? Im not saying it isn't easy. I am saying why bother with something so small and trivial. I realize that it is easier to fly under the "materiality" radar with these small antics but there has to be a point at which it is not worth it.
     
  32. Domeshot14

    Domeshot14 Initiate (0) Jul 10, 2011 California

    This reminds me of the people who have a good job, but end up losing it stealing stupid shit. I knew a guy who was responsible for taking all the empty bottles/cans to the recycling center. He was pocketing the cash every other time and ended up losing his 50K a year job over an extra couple hundred bucks. I guess the point I'm trying to make is people are stupid sometimes.
     
  33. DefenCorps

    DefenCorps Poo-Bah (5,468) Jan 18, 2007 Oregon
    Society Trader

    Sounds like this guy:
    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/05/23/1327219/sap-vp-arrested-in-false-barcode-scheme
    Vice president of a multinational company, caught stealing $30K worth of Legos.
     
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  34. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (716) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    Lots of people get off on the thrill of scamming somebody.

    But there really is pretty decent money to be made in fake beer with so many bottles selling for $50-$100 and up nowadays. You sell two fake $100 bottles per week and that is $10,000 per year.
     
  35. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) Feb 22, 2011 California

    No it's not, you really need to be subtracting eBay fees and the money spent on making the counterfeit. It's probably half that.

    Also, I'm just curious, what are the tax implications of selling on eBay? I've never done it so I don't really know, but if you have to pay income tax on that (or risk an audit) that's another cost.
     
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  36. Domeshot14

    Domeshot14 Initiate (0) Jul 10, 2011 California

    By law you owe tax on any type of income. So you would owe taxes on the amount over any expenses you incurred. The amount of money we are talking about here could easily be written down to a loss with very little tax code knowledge. The risk of an audit making less than 250K+ a year with out taking a red flag deduction is like getting hit by lightning.
     
  37. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) Feb 22, 2011 California

    Fair enough, I'm definitely not a tax expert.
     
  38. MrKennedy

    MrKennedy Champion (894) Dec 29, 2006 Australia
    Trader

    Not eBay specifically, but in general out here (AUS) it depends on whether it is a hobby or business...hobby is occasional, business is regular and of a "sufficient" scale. Hobby isn't taxable. Business, of course, is with the taxable amount being income less related expenses incurred.
     
  39. JealousChalice

    JealousChalice Initiate (0) Feb 28, 2011 California

    It's been a long and troubling day. Time for a good beer. Mmm... what shall it be?
     
  40. tewaris

    tewaris Initiate (0) Jul 14, 2009 Minnesota

    Framboos?
     
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