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Counterfeit Cantillon John Chris Nomad

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk' started by JealousChalice, Jun 11, 2012.

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  1. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    Ebay fees are not that large at all. About 7%-8% at the $100 level, give or take a bit, assuming beer goes in the "miscellaneous" category. Call it an even 10% with PayPal.

    So take CBS, which sells for $120. (plus shipping) Call it a generous $10 to make the beer (2 x FBS plus a bit of bourbon and maple), another $5-$10 for the label/bottle... That's $100-$105... minus fees still equals about $90. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to get it done a bit more efficiently.

    2 x $90 x 52 = $9360 of pure profit. And that's not even talking about one of the more expensive bottles on the site. Kate goes for upwards of $100 for the small bottle, and would probably be even easier to fake. Hell, the Kate label actually looks like something somebody fired off on their printer at home. I'd be shocked if a Kate clone has never made it up there.

    Yes, there are taxes at play, but I'm pretty sure scammers don't bother with reporting everything on their taxes. (I'm betting most honest people don't even bother reporting Ebay sales) Plus if you really wanted to turn it into a business, you could easily deduct time/effort/costs, and cook the books to look net-neutral.
    ShogoKawada likes this.
  2. JealousChalice

    JealousChalice Feb 28, 2011 California

    Good idea. I could do that, but I would have to ask myself, would I feel right drinking a whole bottle myself?
  3. Hophead717

    Hophead717 Oct 21, 2011 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader

    I hear Cantillon makes this great new beer...it's called Nomad...wait, I forget. Something like that. :)
  4. hoeg0015

    hoeg0015 Jul 15, 2008 Minnesota

  5. Brandonbrew

    Brandonbrew Apr 6, 2011 Tennessee

    I've been looking at the label on mine tonight and also been wondering if my bottle is real? Apologies for the flash glare.
  6. DarthKostrizer

    DarthKostrizer May 13, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    There is always a smart ass in the group when someone is trying to help out the beer community. And you have the artistic ability of a 4 year old. Ridiculous
  7. digita7693

    digita7693 Jan 19, 2010 Germany
    Beer Trader

    might as well drink a Cantillon classic gueuze
  8. thirdeye11

    thirdeye11 Feb 3, 2009 Texas
    Beer Trader

    Lighten up man. The artistic ability of a 4 year old was absolutely the point here.
  9. tewaris

    tewaris Jul 14, 2009 Minnesota

    Someone's drinking haterade instead of the usual hydrating beverage.
  10. futura123

    futura123 Jul 29, 2010 California

    mikecharley likes this.
  11. Hophead717

    Hophead717 Oct 21, 2011 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader

    There are legitimately ass-holic posts and then there are light-hearted, genuinely funny ones that are not made at anyone's expense. That pictures falls squarely into the latter category.
  12. jegross2

    jegross2 Jan 3, 2010 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    This is why i don't drink sours ;)
  13. thagr81us

    thagr81us Apr 28, 2010 South Carolina

    Wish I had a JCN to check... Willing to trade big for one though. :)
  14. Brandonbrew

    Brandonbrew Apr 6, 2011 Tennessee

    And there is always one grumpy fart. The absurdity of the "artistic ability" was the point. Maybe take off your top hat and monocle then step down off your high horse so you can see what everyone else did. It was nothing to be taken serious and was just something to add a little humor to a bad situation. I think you need a hug. :)
  15. sidetracked

    sidetracked Nov 9, 2009 Illinois

    Judging by the back labels I'd say you are right. The real bottle looks like it was printed offset while the fake looks like a home inkjet.
  16. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    This thread now officially has everything.
    gwguest, thagr81us and Brandonbrew like this.
  17. Rempo

    Rempo Jan 18, 2010 Indiana

    I'm so glad the original post didn't have the pictures.
  18. drewba

    drewba Nov 14, 2009 Illinois

    Similarly to a lopsided ISOFT that gets tons of threadshits and bickering (but ultimately gets done thanks to the visibility), will this thread help a new generation of scammers dupe bottles?
  19. Rempo

    Rempo Jan 18, 2010 Indiana

    Well now I know to print the black-and-white back label before printing the red-intensive front label, if that's what you mean.

    And yes, it should help the scammers 'cut corners'.
  20. trxxpaxxs

    trxxpaxxs Mar 5, 2010 New York
    Beer Trader

    I was just asking myself the same question. Tons of helpful information being given out, but helpful to both parties (counterfeiters and buyers/traders).
    jedwards likes this.
  21. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    Probably not, I don't think any of this information was actually new to someone who was paying attention.
  22. drewba

    drewba Nov 14, 2009 Illinois

    Well, that's why I said new generation. As in, people that read this thread and are now turning to the dark side.

    I have some experience in prepress and printing and I learned some shit. I'd like to take the ol' Arbitrator-drinks-Black-Xantus-out-of-a-Narke-bottle prank to the next level.
    Edit - it was a narke bottle, right?
  23. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    I tend to doubt it - it's not rocket science. Though I'm not even sure it is a bad thing if it does happen. It would immediately hurt and ultimately destroy the Ebay market if it ever caught on. And the trading community generally does a good job policing itself - if anything, fakes leaking into the trading world would make everybody more cautious, which isn't necessarily a bad thing either. A vet willingly sending a fake out in a trade guarantees excommunication, and even done accidentally it raises questions about how they obtained the bottle. Then just proceed with caution when dealing with noobs, particularly with whales.
  24. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    From what I've heard, yes.
  25. Tenchi221

    Tenchi221 Feb 8, 2010 California
    Subscriber Beer Trader

    i would like to thank everyone that contributed to this thread.. it helped me get through a crappy day at work yesterday.. hehe
    ehammond1 likes this.
  26. claaark13

    claaark13 Nov 29, 2007 Indiana
    Beer Trader

    I don't think there is a next level. My understanding is that Arbitrator is somewhat bitter about that experience. Then again, I was about 10 beers deep when he told me the story, so maybe he's not that bitter.
  27. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California

    so why wouldn't they make a better quality label? low-res artifacted crap is herculean?

    let's get everyone to do something that requires effort. there is no flaw in this plan.

    reminds me of your exchange in this thread (to this day i do not understand it).
  28. Hanzo

    Hanzo Feb 27, 2012 Virginia

    I would like to thank everyone for giving me the idea to make some knock off CBS.

    Now I'll finally get to try it.
  29. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    Never said they were perfectionists... ;) The JCN label in question was probably good enough to fool most people who don't have a real one in hand. In fact, it sounds like it was already traded at least once, so it fooled somebody.
  30. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California

    true. all this time you've been saying that ebay is a haven for scammers and ripoff artists, to which i countered: why wouldn't trading have the same issues? looks like it does.

    i just don't agree with your implication that scammers work hard. by definition they want a big payday for relatively little effort.
    afksports, jedwards and MordorMongo like this.
  31. claaark13

    claaark13 Nov 29, 2007 Indiana
    Beer Trader

    I've been very skeptical in the past when I'm trading "whales" for "whales" and I get a BM from a newish member or member with no references who has a ridiculous cellar. Right...you have every bottle I'm looking for, but you don't really trade and are from the western part of Congo. Np, let's do this, and I'd also like to give you my bank information if that's ok.
    Etan, Knifestyles and afksports like this.
  32. black13

    black13 Apr 11, 2010 Oregon
    Beer Trader

    At least the counterfit bottle is a corked and capped Cantillon bottle ;). Call it your Cantillon Surprise.
  33. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    The reason trading wouldn't have the same issues, is that reputation matters a lot more in the trading world than in Ebay. Traders who pay attention also require noobs to ship first - you can't do that with Ebay. And while Ebay reputation matters in theory, people don't blink twice at bidding on something from a new seller in practice.

    Scammers work hard if they think they can pull of a worthwhile scam. Read some of the stuff over at 419 Eater to see the extent people are willing to go...
  34. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California

    i don't agree with either of the bolded statements.

    ebay also sides with the buyer more often than the seller.
    afksports likes this.
  35. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    I don't feel like rehashing arguments that have already been had earlier in this thread, but again, if a scammer can sell off 10 bottles before a fake one is uncovered, Ebay can't do a damn thing for those first 9 bottles, as the money will already be gone. Further to it, it's incredibly easy to just setup new accounts.

    And yes, just poke around completed Ebay beer sales, and look at the number of sales from sellers with < 10 transactions. Ebay reputation tends to matter most on commodity items - when unique/rare things are in play, people's desire for the product often overrides safe practices.
  36. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California

  37. JohnfromPurdue

    JohnfromPurdue Apr 27, 2009 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

    Obviously someone hasn't seen Ocean's Eleven.
    SpottedZombie likes this.
  38. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California


    but in all seriousness, i'm just taking umbrage with cbeer88's obvious hatred toward ebay sellers. i think the fixation is blinding him to an unpleasant truth about trading.
    afksports and MordorMongo like this.
  39. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    I just see them as being very disjoint universes, and the comparison is apples to oranges. Yes, there are bad traders. Of course.

    But a good/careful trader can easily make 100 trades without receiving a single counterfeit bottle. In fact, this thread seems like the first time it has happened. Despite the hundred thousand trades or whatever that have probably happened on this site over the years. Perhaps it has happened before, and I wouldn't doubt it, but the risks of doing so are so very high with such a minimal reward. So you counterfeit a bottle of beer to get back a bottle of beer, meanwhile you risk being blackballed by the community so you can never trade again? What's the point?

    On the other hand, I don't believe anybody could make 100 Ebay purchases of expensive beers without ending up with numerous counterfeit bottles. And the risks of counterfeiting on Ebay are quite low. Your worst case scenario is you get caught and go open up another account and do it all over again.
  40. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    I was wondering the same thing, and then I realized it might actually make sense to use BA to "launder" the fake bottles and then sell real ones on eBay, since there are literally no bad repercussions on BA whereas on eBay there are some in theory. Of course, that takes another bite out of profits, so it might not be worth it.
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