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Counterfeit Cantillon John Chris Nomad

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk' started by JealousChalice, Jun 11, 2012.

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  1. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    The reason trading wouldn't have the same issues, is that reputation matters a lot more in the trading world than in Ebay. Traders who pay attention also require noobs to ship first - you can't do that with Ebay. And while Ebay reputation matters in theory, people don't blink twice at bidding on something from a new seller in practice.

    Scammers work hard if they think they can pull of a worthwhile scam. Read some of the stuff over at 419 Eater to see the extent people are willing to go...
  2. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California

    i don't agree with either of the bolded statements.

    ebay also sides with the buyer more often than the seller.
    afksports likes this.
  3. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    I don't feel like rehashing arguments that have already been had earlier in this thread, but again, if a scammer can sell off 10 bottles before a fake one is uncovered, Ebay can't do a damn thing for those first 9 bottles, as the money will already be gone. Further to it, it's incredibly easy to just setup new accounts.

    And yes, just poke around completed Ebay beer sales, and look at the number of sales from sellers with < 10 transactions. Ebay reputation tends to matter most on commodity items - when unique/rare things are in play, people's desire for the product often overrides safe practices.
  4. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California

  5. JohnfromPurdue

    JohnfromPurdue Apr 27, 2009 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

    Obviously someone hasn't seen Ocean's Eleven.
    SpottedZombie likes this.
  6. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California


    but in all seriousness, i'm just taking umbrage with cbeer88's obvious hatred toward ebay sellers. i think the fixation is blinding him to an unpleasant truth about trading.
    afksports and MordorMongo like this.
  7. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    I just see them as being very disjoint universes, and the comparison is apples to oranges. Yes, there are bad traders. Of course.

    But a good/careful trader can easily make 100 trades without receiving a single counterfeit bottle. In fact, this thread seems like the first time it has happened. Despite the hundred thousand trades or whatever that have probably happened on this site over the years. Perhaps it has happened before, and I wouldn't doubt it, but the risks of doing so are so very high with such a minimal reward. So you counterfeit a bottle of beer to get back a bottle of beer, meanwhile you risk being blackballed by the community so you can never trade again? What's the point?

    On the other hand, I don't believe anybody could make 100 Ebay purchases of expensive beers without ending up with numerous counterfeit bottles. And the risks of counterfeiting on Ebay are quite low. Your worst case scenario is you get caught and go open up another account and do it all over again.
  8. stupac2

    stupac2 Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    I was wondering the same thing, and then I realized it might actually make sense to use BA to "launder" the fake bottles and then sell real ones on eBay, since there are literally no bad repercussions on BA whereas on eBay there are some in theory. Of course, that takes another bite out of profits, so it might not be worth it.
  9. MordorMongo

    MordorMongo Jul 19, 2009

    Did you buy a fake beer on eBay? You keep stating these beliefs of yours but I am curious whether anyone has (or will admit anyway) bought a confirmed FAKE bottle of anything? Maybe I missed something.....
    afksports likes this.
  10. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California

    i understand what you are saying, but this is all a series of "i don't believe" and "perhaps" and "it seems" statements with absolutely no evidence.

    i don't see how you can take a documented case of falsified beer in trading and turn it into an "a ha! ebay is bad!" argument. it simply doesn't work.

    here's how i see it:

    1) there's no history of what trades have gone down on ba, at all. someone can post a "ft: nomad, iso: wales" and set up 10 different trades with 10 fake bottles. you'll never know what was traded or whom the bottles were traded to. there is no record. it's actually easier and faster to disseminate fake bottles through ba than through ebay (post too many for sale and you flood your own market since the sales are logged).
    2) wales are rare enough that few people will have the chance to sit two bottles side by side and perform a comparison (this works as an argument for both trading and ebay falsification).
    3) if you're "blackballed" on ba, you can start over and try again. look how many times fyrekrakker05 / urownnitemare / alldeybrewing (SAME GUY) hit ba over and over again.
    4) the idea that anyone can be "blackballed" on ba with any sort of consensus is naive. worst case, you create a new account and ship first. hell, spin a convincing story about how you were banned for drunk posting a scumbag steve image, and people might not even question why a join date: today has a bottle of don quijote.
    5) to sum up 1 and 2, it is easy to cheat in trades on ba. to sum up 3 and 4, there are no consequences to cheating in trades on ba. none.

    again, you are fixating on ebay and being almost willfully obtuse about the more immediate danger. i think you have an agenda, and i suggest that you put it aside to accept some of the ugly truths here.
    bum732 and afksports like this.
  11. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    No - I honestly haven't. I doubt anyone would own up to it (or more importantly recognize it), if they did. Though it sounds like this particular bottle of JCN may have originated there.

    I fully admit it is all conjecture. But, counterfeit goods and other types of fraud is a major problem that Ebay has been dealing with since day 1. That's a fact. And the environment is perfect for counterfeit craft beers - easily and cheaply made, sell for large amounts, difficult to tell the difference for the majority of buyers, big enough to be worthwhile but small enough to stay under the radar hobby, and ultimately it's not even a legal Ebay transaction, so the buyer has little recourse to complain.
  12. jedwards

    jedwards Feb 3, 2009 California

    In all fairness, we don't really even have that. We have two different JCN label types, an assertion that Cantillon says all the labels of JCN have rounded corners, and another assertion that the labels may have been applied by the retailer (as was discussed previously in the thread... label variation, especially when not directly applied the by the brewer, isn't sufficient to determine provenance. Maybe the retailer didn't get enough labels and printed a few more up later on). Until the bottle actually gets traced back to the source, we don't actually know for sure.
  13. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California

    ok, fair enough.

    a suspected case of falsified beer in trading

    emphasis is really on "trading." if you're going to extrapolate anything from this, it's that trading is unsafe.
  14. trxxpaxxs

    trxxpaxxs Mar 5, 2010 New York
    Beer Trader

    I have some fake Cantillon glasses you can drink your fake JCN in...

  15. stxSS07

    stxSS07 Nov 23, 2010 Illinois

    Looks like that free advert got his last two Blabaers sold. Now...who it be?
  16. sleepyhead

    sleepyhead Jul 24, 2009 California
    Beer Trader

    Back to the original intent of this thread...has anyone heard from the guys that made and labeled the bottles?
  17. BigGene

    BigGene Oct 30, 2010 Florida

    To further argue that it is easy to sell faked bottles of JCN on EBAY. You are not allowed to to sell alcohol on EBAY. In turn I would just need one batch of pictures that say came from the ebay listing quoted in this thread.

    I could just send an Empty bottle and even if the buyer complains to Ebay there is nothing Ebay will do, as the deal is complicity for the bottle not the contents. Most people even quote ebays policy
    (* By purchasing this item you agree to be 21 years or older. * Both the buyer and seller agree they are of the legal age to purchase alcohol at their shipping address. * The value of the item is in the collectible container, not its contents. The collectible container has not been opened and any incidental contents are not intended for consumption. * The item is not available at any retail outlet, and the container has a value that substantially exceeds the current retail price of the alcohol in the container. * The seller will take all appropriate steps to ensure that the buyer is of lawful age in the buyer and seller's jurisdiction (generally 21 years of age). * Buyers and sellers both ensure that the sale complies with all applicable laws and shipping regulations.
    black13 likes this.
  18. Gosox8787

    Gosox8787 Jan 24, 2009 New Hampshire

    Except the terms clearly state the bottle must be unopened. If the buyer gets an empty bottle, the seller is clearly in violation and the buyer would have recourse.
    kundog18 likes this.
  19. cmmcdonn

    cmmcdonn Jun 21, 2009 Virginia

    All people quote the policy. It's mandatory to sell alcohol through this loophole.

    I don't buy or sell on ebay, but there's no way you can list an unopened bottle, send an empty, and ebay will just overlook it.
  20. BigGene

    BigGene Oct 30, 2010 Florida

    understood, but as a loophole couldn't you cap an empty, technically it is unopened? Nothing states there must be liquid in the bottle. Or for that matter you could send a freaking bottle of water and it would live up to the letter or the policy.
  21. Gosox8787

    Gosox8787 Jan 24, 2009 New Hampshire

    Isn't there a way their money can be refunded with PayPal? (I honestly have no clue as I never use Ebay for anything)
  22. Holland

    Holland Apr 7, 2011 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Any altered collectible (even if it's restored) isn't going to have the same value as the original in mint condition, unaltered.
  23. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    But how do you prove it has been altered, unless you drink it, which you are explicitly not supposed to do? More importantly, why would you even open it, if you purchased it for collectible purposes, and opening it ruins its collectible value?

    It's a big grey area, for sure...
  24. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    You can get into arbitration, but it's not that cut and dry.
  25. Holland

    Holland Apr 7, 2011 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Agreed that it's a gray area, but at least there is a chance of repercussions. Not arguing for buying on ebay - I've never done so and don't see it in my future. But I'd rather buy on ebay than trade with some of the shady characters on here.
  26. NarcoSolo

    NarcoSolo Jan 1, 2012 Pennsylvania

    I like how every single thread in this subforum somehow turns into an Ebay thread. I swear this site has some seriously unresolved Ebay issues. :rolleyes:
    Skye1024 and Soonami like this.
  27. sleepyhead

    sleepyhead Jul 24, 2009 California
    Beer Trader

    +1 This thread is crap. It went off on a tangent. I'm not surprised.
  28. futura123

    futura123 Jul 29, 2010 California

    Can anyone volunteer to create a spreadsheet of known Ebay sellers and BA/Ratebeer username? I know one: Adam Jackson.
  29. Domeshot14

    Domeshot14 Jul 10, 2011 California

    It's actually very cut and dry. For such a big hater on ebay have you ever used it to buy or sell anything? Buyer's on ebay have a lot of power. If I complain that something I bought wasn't as described they take that shit seriously. It's the foundation of their business. If they can't protect their customers why would the customers come back.

    This majority of this community doesn't like to see beer being bought and sold on ebay, we all know that. I just don't understand your point of view being so one sided. Did you get burned on ebay?
    fargoth likes this.
  30. SpottedZombie

    SpottedZombie Feb 7, 2012 Illinois

    How would you know if something you bought (a rare beer bottle, lets say) wasn't as it was described? You seem to be missing the point that you can't actually drink the contents of the bottle. Also, if a bottle of M was to be counterfeit, or even if it was a refilled bottle, how do you confirm that it isn't the original cap(ping)?

    It sounds like the only way to protect yourself from purchasing a fake on eBay is to check provenance, which the seller may or may not provide to you.
  31. Knifestyles

    Knifestyles Jun 7, 2005 New York

  32. ShogoKawada

    ShogoKawada May 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

  33. Centennial

    Centennial Nov 9, 2009 Vermont

  34. futura123

    futura123 Jul 29, 2010 California

    I'll monitor these accounts until the BA DL supposed to send to thargr81us showed up. We can file a claim w Ebay that he tried to sell stolen stuff.
  35. Centennial

    Centennial Nov 9, 2009 Vermont

  36. Knifestyles

    Knifestyles Jun 7, 2005 New York

    Which BA DL? It seems that he actually bought one in early May (Bourbon Barrel)....
  37. Knifestyles

    Knifestyles Jun 7, 2005 New York

    You betcha. I got a Kuhnhenn 2009 BBBW at a pretty reasonable cost (threw in a 2010 4D as an "extra"). Bottle was entirely legit.....however, his shipping/communication practices were not.

    EDIT: My feedback was on his iron_man account, not game_henge. The former was apparently suspended for reasons that were never really explained. If you check through his history on both accounts, you'll see that he was cross-selling identical bottles...even using the same photos.

    You'll also see that I left hop-one some feedback as well on one of those gnarly looking Mort Subite's from the "70's".
  38. JohnGalt1

    JohnGalt1 Aug 10, 2005 Idaho
    Beer Trader

    Centennial likes this.
  39. futura123

    futura123 Jul 29, 2010 California

  40. Knifestyles

    Knifestyles Jun 7, 2005 New York

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