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Counterfeit Cantillon John Chris Nomad

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk' started by JealousChalice, Jun 11, 2012.

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  1. Levitation

    Levitation Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2009 California

    i understand what you are saying, but this is all a series of "i don't believe" and "perhaps" and "it seems" statements with absolutely no evidence.

    i don't see how you can take a documented case of falsified beer in trading and turn it into an "a ha! ebay is bad!" argument. it simply doesn't work.

    here's how i see it:

    1) there's no history of what trades have gone down on ba, at all. someone can post a "ft: nomad, iso: wales" and set up 10 different trades with 10 fake bottles. you'll never know what was traded or whom the bottles were traded to. there is no record. it's actually easier and faster to disseminate fake bottles through ba than through ebay (post too many for sale and you flood your own market since the sales are logged).
    2) wales are rare enough that few people will have the chance to sit two bottles side by side and perform a comparison (this works as an argument for both trading and ebay falsification).
    3) if you're "blackballed" on ba, you can start over and try again. look how many times fyrekrakker05 / urownnitemare / alldeybrewing (SAME GUY) hit ba over and over again.
    4) the idea that anyone can be "blackballed" on ba with any sort of consensus is naive. worst case, you create a new account and ship first. hell, spin a convincing story about how you were banned for drunk posting a scumbag steve image, and people might not even question why a join date: today has a bottle of don quijote.
    5) to sum up 1 and 2, it is easy to cheat in trades on ba. to sum up 3 and 4, there are no consequences to cheating in trades on ba. none.

    again, you are fixating on ebay and being almost willfully obtuse about the more immediate danger. i think you have an agenda, and i suggest that you put it aside to accept some of the ugly truths here.
    bum732 and afksports like this.
  2. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (719) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    No - I honestly haven't. I doubt anyone would own up to it (or more importantly recognize it), if they did. Though it sounds like this particular bottle of JCN may have originated there.

    I fully admit it is all conjecture. But, counterfeit goods and other types of fraud is a major problem that Ebay has been dealing with since day 1. That's a fact. And the environment is perfect for counterfeit craft beers - easily and cheaply made, sell for large amounts, difficult to tell the difference for the majority of buyers, big enough to be worthwhile but small enough to stay under the radar hobby, and ultimately it's not even a legal Ebay transaction, so the buyer has little recourse to complain.
  3. jedwards

    jedwards Initiate (2) Feb 3, 2009 California

    In all fairness, we don't really even have that. We have two different JCN label types, an assertion that Cantillon says all the labels of JCN have rounded corners, and another assertion that the labels may have been applied by the retailer (as was discussed previously in the thread... label variation, especially when not directly applied the by the brewer, isn't sufficient to determine provenance. Maybe the retailer didn't get enough labels and printed a few more up later on). Until the bottle actually gets traced back to the source, we don't actually know for sure.
  4. Levitation

    Levitation Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2009 California

    ok, fair enough.

    a suspected case of falsified beer in trading

    emphasis is really on "trading." if you're going to extrapolate anything from this, it's that trading is unsafe.
  5. trxxpaxxs

    trxxpaxxs Meyvn (1,292) Mar 5, 2010 New York
    Beer Trader

    I have some fake Cantillon glasses you can drink your fake JCN in...

  6. stxSS07

    stxSS07 Initiate (0) Nov 23, 2010 Illinois

    Looks like that free advert got his last two Blabaers sold. Now...who it be?
  7. sleepyhead

    sleepyhead Initiate (0) Jul 24, 2009 California
    Beer Trader

    Back to the original intent of this thread...has anyone heard from the guys that made and labeled the bottles?
  8. BigGene

    BigGene Initiate (0) Oct 30, 2010 Florida

    To further argue that it is easy to sell faked bottles of JCN on EBAY. You are not allowed to to sell alcohol on EBAY. In turn I would just need one batch of pictures that say came from the ebay listing quoted in this thread.

    I could just send an Empty bottle and even if the buyer complains to Ebay there is nothing Ebay will do, as the deal is complicity for the bottle not the contents. Most people even quote ebays policy
    (* By purchasing this item you agree to be 21 years or older. * Both the buyer and seller agree they are of the legal age to purchase alcohol at their shipping address. * The value of the item is in the collectible container, not its contents. The collectible container has not been opened and any incidental contents are not intended for consumption. * The item is not available at any retail outlet, and the container has a value that substantially exceeds the current retail price of the alcohol in the container. * The seller will take all appropriate steps to ensure that the buyer is of lawful age in the buyer and seller's jurisdiction (generally 21 years of age). * Buyers and sellers both ensure that the sale complies with all applicable laws and shipping regulations.
    black13 likes this.
  9. Gosox8787

    Gosox8787 Meyvn (1,047) Jan 24, 2009 New Hampshire

    Except the terms clearly state the bottle must be unopened. If the buyer gets an empty bottle, the seller is clearly in violation and the buyer would have recourse.
    kundog18 likes this.
  10. cmmcdonn

    cmmcdonn Initiate (0) Jun 21, 2009 Virginia

    All people quote the policy. It's mandatory to sell alcohol through this loophole.

    I don't buy or sell on ebay, but there's no way you can list an unopened bottle, send an empty, and ebay will just overlook it.
  11. BigGene

    BigGene Initiate (0) Oct 30, 2010 Florida

    understood, but as a loophole couldn't you cap an empty, technically it is unopened? Nothing states there must be liquid in the bottle. Or for that matter you could send a freaking bottle of water and it would live up to the letter or the policy.
  12. Gosox8787

    Gosox8787 Meyvn (1,047) Jan 24, 2009 New Hampshire

    Isn't there a way their money can be refunded with PayPal? (I honestly have no clue as I never use Ebay for anything)
  13. Holland

    Holland Champion (805) Apr 7, 2011 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Any altered collectible (even if it's restored) isn't going to have the same value as the original in mint condition, unaltered.
  14. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (719) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    But how do you prove it has been altered, unless you drink it, which you are explicitly not supposed to do? More importantly, why would you even open it, if you purchased it for collectible purposes, and opening it ruins its collectible value?

    It's a big grey area, for sure...
  15. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (719) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    You can get into arbitration, but it's not that cut and dry.
  16. Holland

    Holland Champion (805) Apr 7, 2011 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Agreed that it's a gray area, but at least there is a chance of repercussions. Not arguing for buying on ebay - I've never done so and don't see it in my future. But I'd rather buy on ebay than trade with some of the shady characters on here.
  17. NarcoSolo

    NarcoSolo Initiate (0) Jan 1, 2012 Pennsylvania

    I like how every single thread in this subforum somehow turns into an Ebay thread. I swear this site has some seriously unresolved Ebay issues. :rolleyes:
    Skye1024 and Soonami like this.
  18. sleepyhead

    sleepyhead Initiate (0) Jul 24, 2009 California
    Beer Trader

    +1 This thread is crap. It went off on a tangent. I'm not surprised.
  19. futura123

    futura123 Initiate (0) Jul 29, 2010 California

    Can anyone volunteer to create a spreadsheet of known Ebay sellers and BA/Ratebeer username? I know one: Adam Jackson.
  20. Domeshot14

    Domeshot14 Initiate (0) Jul 10, 2011 California

    It's actually very cut and dry. For such a big hater on ebay have you ever used it to buy or sell anything? Buyer's on ebay have a lot of power. If I complain that something I bought wasn't as described they take that shit seriously. It's the foundation of their business. If they can't protect their customers why would the customers come back.

    This majority of this community doesn't like to see beer being bought and sold on ebay, we all know that. I just don't understand your point of view being so one sided. Did you get burned on ebay?
    fargoth likes this.
  21. SpottedZombie

    SpottedZombie Initiate (0) Feb 7, 2012 Illinois

    How would you know if something you bought (a rare beer bottle, lets say) wasn't as it was described? You seem to be missing the point that you can't actually drink the contents of the bottle. Also, if a bottle of M was to be counterfeit, or even if it was a refilled bottle, how do you confirm that it isn't the original cap(ping)?

    It sounds like the only way to protect yourself from purchasing a fake on eBay is to check provenance, which the seller may or may not provide to you.
  22. Knifestyles

    Knifestyles Initiate (154) Jun 7, 2005 New York

  23. ShogoKawada

    ShogoKawada Meyvn (1,247) May 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

  24. Centennial

    Centennial Initiate (0) Nov 9, 2009 Vermont

  25. futura123

    futura123 Initiate (0) Jul 29, 2010 California

    I'll monitor these accounts until the BA DL supposed to send to thargr81us showed up. We can file a claim w Ebay that he tried to sell stolen stuff.
  26. Centennial

    Centennial Initiate (0) Nov 9, 2009 Vermont

  27. Knifestyles

    Knifestyles Initiate (154) Jun 7, 2005 New York

    Which BA DL? It seems that he actually bought one in early May (Bourbon Barrel)....
  28. Knifestyles

    Knifestyles Initiate (154) Jun 7, 2005 New York

    You betcha. I got a Kuhnhenn 2009 BBBW at a pretty reasonable cost (threw in a 2010 4D as an "extra"). Bottle was entirely legit.....however, his shipping/communication practices were not.

    EDIT: My feedback was on his iron_man account, not game_henge. The former was apparently suspended for reasons that were never really explained. If you check through his history on both accounts, you'll see that he was cross-selling identical bottles...even using the same photos.

    You'll also see that I left hop-one some feedback as well on one of those gnarly looking Mort Subite's from the "70's".
  29. JohnGalt1

    JohnGalt1 Poo-Bah (4,617) Aug 10, 2005 Idaho
    Beer Trader

    Centennial likes this.
  30. futura123

    futura123 Initiate (0) Jul 29, 2010 California

  31. Knifestyles

    Knifestyles Initiate (154) Jun 7, 2005 New York

  32. ShogoKawada

    ShogoKawada Meyvn (1,247) May 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Not really, he used the 'I'm the best trader' shield for so long while pulling shady stuff, it was a matter of time.
    Levitation likes this.
  33. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (719) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    Yep - I've been using Ebay for 15 years. (not beer) Yes, they do take buyers seriously, but the product in question here is a big gray area. It is also not open and shut in favor of buyers - they do go through arbitration and will side with the seller plenty.

    Also, there's not much Ebay can do if a buyer opens their $200 whale 3 months after purchase, determines it was fake, and the seller has already wiped their PayPal account.

    I am one-sided, because I've watched Ebay slowly turn limited craft beer releases into event tickets. That sucks. Dealing with scalpers, lines flooded by people who have no interest in enjoying the item, paying 10x the price, counterfeit concerns, etc. It's already here and/or coming soon if this pace keeps up. How can anybody actually want that?
  34. Levitation

    Levitation Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2009 California

    nobody does. please don't straw man and appeal to emotion here. it's perfectly legit to point out that the same pitfalls of buying on ebay exist in trading on ba. the fact that this purported counterfeit was obtained through trading should be enough to establish that.

    at least ebay has arbitration. what protection does ba have? look at how long mikesgroove got away with his shit.
  35. heyta

    heyta Initiate (156) Jun 16, 2009 Georgia
    Beer Trader

    What makes trading scarier is that sometimes the person who is potentially trading a fake doesn't know it is a fake -- then are they really at fault? In the OP's case, it sounds like this could be what happened... When you trade for your next whale, won't you ask the other guy to send you pictures?

    FWIW, I checked my JCN bottle, and the text seems crisp, and has correctly rounded edges on the label. It also has a 2011 cork.
  36. Domeshot14

    Domeshot14 Initiate (0) Jul 10, 2011 California

    Last time I checked, Yes. If you have a fake $100 and try to give it to someone, guess who's at fault.
  37. heyta

    heyta Initiate (156) Jun 16, 2009 Georgia
    Beer Trader

    You are not at fault when you have a faulty $100 bill. You are subject to forfeiture, but you don't go to jail.
  38. claaark13

    claaark13 Zealot (504) Nov 29, 2007 Indiana
    Beer Trader

    He bought way too much De Muerte.
  39. alcstradamus

    alcstradamus Savant (919) Aug 10, 2008 Iowa
    Beer Trader

    WOW...so this dude spent like $6000 last month on BA Dark Lords and we are supposed to believe his 'lost my job' story as to why he is a bad trader? Fuck that guy.
  40. Soonami

    Soonami Initiate (0) Jul 16, 2008 Pennsylvania

    out of curiosity, I counted them--there's 20 BA DL at an average price of $250 with shipping. That's $5000 in beer he bought in the last month and a half...There's also a dozen or so bottles of BA FFF beers like Alpha Klaus and Behemoth.

    Maybe he's buying up all this beer before he declares bankruptcy and then he'll send everyone he owes beer to a Bourbon or Brandy DL!
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