Craft's Proliferation Problem

What is the craft beer market? You guys are talking tap handles at craft beer bars, and what it would cost to go to such places 2-3 times a week (versus a beer vacation in Europe!) My impression, where I live, is that most craft beer is purchased at retail (at supermarkets, and at TW) and a very large percentage of the locally brewed beer is sold at the taproom/brewpub. Indeed much of the expansion is in brewpubs in neighborhoods that could support one, but do not yet have one. Plus people buying beer at ordinary restaurants that increasingly carry a wider range of beers.

I think y'all's view of the "craft beer market" is a bit limited and more elite, than the market that most of the new breweries are selling into. Nothing wrong in your tastes, but if the question is whether any given market is saturated, I think you need to look at us peons.

 

There are loads of east asians in the metro area, and hardly any Belgians. And a lot more people from North Carolina and New Jersey than from Vermont and Oregon. I don't think what beers are available here is that directly connected to where people are from. It could be less locavorism, but farm to table restaurants thrive, and loads of people visit brewpubls and microbrewery taprooms.

 

Your first paragraph seems to be a bit circular -- there's no mystery, people just like other stuff, I happen to like other (import) stuff, BUT...it's not fair to paint me as someone who just likes import stuff...I guess I lost you there. Not that it matters, because I think the latter half is basically the rub and a debate that has, indeed, been had too many times before. Not much to add, therefore, other than you're really just a victim of an unfortunate circumstance, enjoying beer styles not preferred here. And, it's probably worth specifying that we're talking about tap handles here -- I've been in many a Phoenix Total Wine, bottle shop, etc., and there's still tons of imports on shelves.

I'd still be interested to hear whether you think Germany and England and Belgium should be sure to provide top shelf American IPAs on draught, since that's what we're good at?

 

In Cinci they do not consider Great Lakes local? Here Devil's Backbone seems to pass as local, and that is brewed 160 miles away.

 

So what's the cause then?

 

I am over 50, and if we were about to do a Euro vacation, and I told my wife I wanted to visit Bavaria, or Belgium, for the beer, instead of going to Paris, or Florence, or Athens, or wherever, she would think I had completely lost it.

 

Tap handles tend to be one of the more visible signs. I see the same stuff going on with shelves at grocery stores, liquor stores, and specialty beer-only bottle shops - space taken away from good to great beer to be given to the latest releases.

Not just expensive good to great beer, either. Stuff like Eliot Ness and Edmund Fitzgerald will vanish from shelves where I used to always be able to get it at $8.99 a six pack, to be replaced by cans of various local products at $9.99 a six pack. Anyone who tries to tell me that Rhinegeist Panther is in the same league as Ed Fitz, to the point that it should shove Ed Fitz off a shelf and cost a dollar more, has a much different palate than I.

And nope, Cleveland beer is 4-5 hours and around 300 or so miles away from us here in Cincy. The word "local" tends to be reserved for stuff literally within the I-275 loop or so.

EDIT: Okay, maybe more like around 250 miles. Either way, Cleveland's pretty close to the opposite diagonal corner of the state from us Cincitucky folk. Lol.

 

I am skeptical that DC is the anomaly.

 

Didn't really answer my question, but okay.

BTW, a Google search of the Phoenix metro area probably ain't the best way to get a feel for its craft bars, but I'm sure you know that.

 

If you like the Edmund Fitz well enough to drink 24 bottles over the course of 3 months, walk into your favorite bottle shop and ask to speak to the beer manager. Tell him you'd like to order a case for you. (Be prepared in case he asks for an advance deposit on the order.) Then while you are chatting with him, you could explain that since they've been out on your last few visits you want the whole case to tide you over while you find a beer store where it is in stock more often. Be an interesting experiment to see what happens. :-)

 

Given that it seemed to confirm what YemenMocha has reported, I thought it might be accurate. Of course I am not flying Phoenix to check out it's craft beer bar scene.

And yes, I did answer your question. You want to know what I think the reasons are that the DC craft beer bar scene is less locavore than most US metros. That implies I agree that it is less locavore than most other metros. I am not convinced that it is, though I willingly concede that I do not have the knowledge of other areas needed for that.

 

Like pulling teeth sometimes. Regardless, I hope you get to travel a bit more to check other scenes out.

 

I am also married and I really, really, really understand what you are saying here.

Cheers!

P.S. And there are other family considerations beyond spouses in this matter; lots of folks seem to not understand these matters.

 

I just checked out the Harris Teeter across the street. Less than 10% of the craft beer shelf space (excluding 'crafty' and Yuengling) was DC, Md, Va beers. And most of that was pretty good beer, AFAICT (Port City, Devil's Backbone, Heavy Seas, and DC Brau) OTOH Blue Moon and Shock Top took up about as much space as all the DC-Md-Va beers. I think Yuengling alone did. And course there was quite a bit of space for macro AALs, and macroish imports. And this in one of the more solidly yuppie neighborhoods in DC (though due to location and food deserts it also gets some patronage from nearby AA working class areas)

So it seems to me that at least in DC, if there is something limiting the shelf space available to better craft beers, it is not localism, but crafty beers, macro brand proliferation (and macro dominance in general) and the continued market for mass produced imports.

So the anger here about locals taking shelf space always puzzles me, since AFAICT many of the same folks concerned about too many local beers, dismiss concerns about BMC shelf space strategies ("people buy what they like") I will assume for now that some of that is because the market here is unusual, but I wonder sometimes if there are other things involved.

 

DC is different from most places though. Even NYC has a bigger demand for NYC-brewed beers and Westchester or Long Island beers, than DC does for DC-brewed beers. (IMO) And since MD and VA are by definition "not DC" I think that expecting the DC resident in the craft beer demo to seek out VA or MD beers is akin to expecting a Brooklynite to want and seek out something from Jersey.

 

We are overlapping several topics here but that's necessary for the point at hand. Look, for moment I'll be politically correct and use @UrbanCaveman 's example of Eliot Fitzgerald being replaced by Rhinegeist Panther. I'll be PC and say that taste is just all subjective and given market forces, Panther is going to knock E.F. off the taplines. It descriptively explains what is happening without making a judgment. I think something similar is the case with imports and American crafts, as one can see something like top rated German or Belgian examples being kicked from the taps for some Bad Water Pale Ale or Phoenix Ale Brewing Phoestivus Ale. Demand is what it is.

Taking the politically correct gloves off, I find both of those sorts of situations to be a negative. So yes I can politely acknowledge the explanation but it doesn't mean that I think it is a good thing. Maybe I'll keep it tame as @UrbanCaveman did and just say I think people have a different palate than I do.

I think there's more to the story here and much of it, too, has its own threads - whether new American craft beer drinkers can appreciate various styles of beer, especially the subtle ones, and especially the ones that are German and Belgian (evidenced by the vocal people who honestly think American examples are better than German examples for those German styles, and the same for Belgian styles.) Regarding disputes of taste, one recent analogy comes to mind of a nephew who grew up on BBQ Chicken Pizza and similar - we were in NYC and Brooklyn and he just didn't "get" Neapolitan pizza. Educating him on '00' flour and San Marzano tomatoes was useless. He didn't see what the fuss was about. Some will say this doesn't matter, taste is subjective, etc. but I think there's a problem that remains, and I don't expect agreement on this problem about matters of taste, whether in food or beer.

 

From a neutral perspective I'd say why not let them try it and see if they like it. I suspect it may catch on among the younger crowd that doesn't drink much of their native country's beer already. I'm skeptical that it will catch on among those who have grown up and lived their lives around such great beer.

From my perspective, if I moved there now and then saw an influx of American craft beer I would hardly drink any of it. Maybe a couple per month, tops. I would drink almost exclusively fresh, local German beer. Or Belgian beer if I was in Belgium.

 

This discussion has been going on for thousands of years. The Romans had a saying for this:

De gustibus non est disputandum

Translation: "In matters of taste, there can be no disputes"

It would not surprise me that we will see more of this sort of discussion on BA again and again and …

Cheers!

 

yep, and J.S. Mill had some very insightful comments on it as well as David Hume.


In the current context, I think the proliferation of so many new beers and resulting changes to taplists to be a problem. But, I guess it's a problem only if there is something legitimate to be said about disputes of taste.