Crystal - Why the hate?

Exactly what FATC1TY said above. I will note that in Pales I am very light handed with it as I used a little too much once and it made the mouthfeel a bit too thick for the beer IMO. I will be using a good amount in my Brett IPA to try to make up for any lost body from the lack of glycerol produced by the Brett.

 

I'm planning on using some in a Brett Saison.. Gives brett something to chew on, and doesn't muddy up the water, gives me some color and body after 3711 thrashes it.

 

I loved a saison I brewed with Pils, GNO, and Aromatic malt, with 3711. I did a Brett Saison (Brett L and 3711) once with no Crystal and will say that 3711 definitely left the beer with a decent body. I think you will be pleased with your results.

 

Love me some crystal malt. Belgian Caramunich? - probably my favorite. Many English dark crystals are nice too. I generally avoid the US stuff but Briess Cr 40 does have a great "caramel" flavor to me. Special B? - sign me up, if we don't go overboard. I prefer a touch of honey malt or even honey in IPA, but I use crystal in many many beers.

not a fan of GNO though. my palate gets tunnel vision with that stuff and all I can taste is Crunch Berries. *shrug* I get that many like it; to each their own!

cheers--
--Michael

 

I think the big thing against crystal malts is that a lot of the time, they're in a recipe simply for the sake of having something else in there. Personally, I use some in probably 90% of what I brew, but it's usually around 3% or less of the grist. Exceptions to this would be beers that need a hefty body boost (cold weather beers, things with large sugar additions that I don't want completely dry, or low gravity beers that wouldn't have much body without them), Stouts with a a lot of roasted malts (helps take the edge off), and hoppy red ales, where I love to layer in a few different lovibonds of crystal and blast it with citrusy hops. Tastes like an orange-caramel dessert.

 

If I'm making up a recipe for a Pale, or I(I)PA it's pretty much guaranteed I'll be throwing in a bit of C20 or 40. Not a lot, but to me it adds a level of interest that straight two row pales don't offer me.

What's interesting is that listening/reading to guys like Mitch Steele (who I think is a genius) talk about judicious use of Crystal malt if not eliminating it altogether from (I)IPAs, yet two of my favorite Stone beers with recipes in that same book use about 5-7% lighter crystal malts. I do think that 8% C80 would quickly take over a hoppy beer, but used judiciously a moderate amount of lighter lovibond crystal malt helps me make beers tha t suit my palate pretty well.

 

Just like so many said, nothing wrong with crystal, and it can add wonderful qualities to many beers. It just gets misused more than some other things. In the dark days, 20+ years ago, there were a few years when many (most?) people were overdoing hop bitterness in every style. They got over it; I expect the same thing will happen with crystal. It's not just homebrewers. Some pros who should know better use 20-30% crystal when 0-5% would be more appropriate. Maybe they like it, and if they can find enough customers, more power to them (and anyone with a bizarre love of crystal).

 

Lot's of good points I agree with in this thread that I won't repeat. What I will add is as follows:

A well known strategy when brewing modern ipa's is to generally limit crystal malt use to below 4% of the grain bill. The idea is that crystal malt inhibits the hops from shining completely by masking the flavor and reducing the dryness of the beer. People that brew this modern interpretation of IPA are generally striving for an IPA that is as "hop forward" as possible. They feel that using this technique is essential to accomplish that goal. The counter argument is generally that adding some residual sweetness and flavor contrast to such a glass of hop juice actually heightens the sensory experience andbalances the IPA's flavor profile.

I myself have brewed many new school and old school IPA's. I enjoy both for what they are, regardless of which one I prefer (new school) and brew both styles often.

 

Use CaraMunich instead. I use CM I in my low grav saisons, it adds a nice 'grainy' character and enhances the mouthfeel perception, fills out the beer without seeming like there is crystal malt. CM II would probably work in bigger saisons, but I haven't used it. CMIII is great for a brown BdG.

That being said, Bam Biere had C80 in it, so what do I know...

 

Apparently, on average, most of us are unaware of this strategy

edit: anyone who made this beer think it had too much crystal in it?

http://beeradvocate.com/community/t...ect-poll-8-select-of-c-40-crystal-malt.63055/

 

Not to my surprise this thread has a fair amount of discussion on crystal malt in IPAs.

A number of folks have made mention of ‘old school’ vs. ‘new school’ wrt IPAs (and I assume DIPAs as well).

So, what defines a ‘new school’ vs. an ‘old school’ IPA/DIPA?

Is 4% the proper metric to define a new school IPA?

In the Mitch Steele book on IPA he provides a recipe for Fat Heads Headhunter IPA (is that ‘new school’?). For that recipe there is 8% of crystal malt.

For Vinnie’s recipe for Pliny the Elder he has 8% of crystal malt.

It has been discussed in past threads that Green Flash West Coast IPA they use 15% crystal malt for that beer. Is WCIPA an ‘old school’ IPA?

I will confess that I personally do not know what is the ‘break’ between an ‘old school’ IPA and a ‘new school’ IPA. I have absolutely no idea what percentage of crystal malt defines an ‘old school’ IPA vs. a ‘new school’ IPA.

I will opine that Green Flash WCIPA does not seem like an ‘old school’ IPA to me; it seems like a ‘modern’ west coast style IPA to me. The fact that it has 15% crystal malt does not change my opinion on that beer.

Cheers!

 

I made this beer and thought it was great. As a rule, I don't rebrew a lot of recipes, but if I decided on a house IPA, it could be this one. However, at the start, I was a little concerned about the crystal. It was about 5% c40 and 3% carapils. I think it had a few things going on that helped it. The big hop load balanced the sweetness. If it were 8% c40, I might have found it too sweet, so subbing carapils in for some of the crystal might be a good approach if sweetness is a concern. Lastly, it used a very attenuative yeast (1056) and I mashed for high fermentability, at 150 F, so I don't think it suffered from being too heavy.

 

Absolutely not. It was damn fine as-is. I am going to brew it again soon, but with a different hop profile. I loved the body on that beer, and the hops flavor was awesome. The grist will remain as-is on round two.

 

I'll say it has 99.99% to do with hop schedule & rates and 0.01% to do with malt bill. Many of what people consider to be "old school" or "east coast" ipas actually have 0% crystal malts in them, eg DFH or Harpoon.

agree 100% with pweiss's statement above (great post)...just as almost any spice used in cooking can take over a dish, crystal malts if misused can overwhelm a beer. If handled properly and used deftly, it can enhance the beer. As Jack points out, Green Flash is a perfect example of beer that hop heads have championed for years which would be regarded as a crystal malt bomb by many homebrewer's standards. Hill Farmstead is also not shy in their like for crystal malts as well.

 

I don't hate crystal malts, but I am quick to point out too much crystal. I have used too much of it before, and found those beers tasted terrible. I rarely have more than 5% of my grain bill as crystal malts now.

 

I like crystal malts. In the right place and the right amounts there great!

 

I really don't see any grain as "cheating". Whether it's crystal or something else, it is generally for the same overall goal, try to brew a beer you are proud of. Whether you achieve that through using certain malts and omitting others is totally up to you. You being new to brewing I'd say try some brews with crystal and some without and make your own determination. Off the top of mind head, the only thing I can think of is food coloring to achieve color that would be "cheating" in brewing. Again though, that is only my opinion, others may disagree on the food coloring. That's the great thing about brewing, try whatever you want, you never know what you'll concoct!

 

Some time back, Vinnie Cilurzo stated that he does not like too much crystal will American C hops. Others have said similar things. It crimes down to the sugar favors (caramel, dark sugar, raisins) from some crystal malts not going well with with the citrus flavors. If one looks at some British IPA recipes, they use a fair amount of darker crystal malts, which work well with the earthy British hops and esters yeast (not much has been said about yeast).

There is the 6 row crystal argument. There are only 2 maltsters that make specialty malts in NA, Briess and Great Western. Briess does make 6 row crystal malts, but they also make 2 row crystal malts which are listed on their web page. Don't know about GW.

While I mentioned 6 row, let me say it gets a lot of negative comments, and I wonder why sometimes. I use it in many beers, and used right it can result in a very good beer.

It comes down to the targeted taste of the finished beer, and you have to reverse engineer the beer to get the flavor you want. That is one of the massages in Gordon Strong's book. Gordon has stated a few times that he is not a fan of Maris Otter and American C hops, as he does not think the toasty flavors work well with the C hops.

Randy Mosher has said for a long time that he like a flavorful base malt and less specialty. That gives a richer malt flavor.

Most British Bitter recipes have a fair amount of crystal to bump up the flavor and body in a less than 5% beer, many at <4%, with British yeast and hops. One of the first crystal malt applications. Many of the original homebrew recipes were for Bitters and other British style, and I often wonder if that influenced the mindset of using crystal in everything.

I could say more, but I have rambled on enough.

 

I'm a fan of crystal and I like using c40-c80 to impart different colors to my ambers, pale ales and IPA's....don't need to use much though.