Crystal - Why the hate?

This could get interesting...I'm not sure about your last statement though...what is a noble anything? I'll be honest...I hate the term...sounds elitist.

Call the noble SAVAK! : )

 

Please remember that English is not Tebuken's first language and cut him some slack. I often struggle for the right word in my native tongue; translation makes it a lot harder. Having said that, there are a few yeasts I'd not hesitate to label 'noble' (food for a new thread?).

 

Yes, I had the same thought, but it's not personal...I don't think I'm being an American dick anymore than normal : ) Cheers

 

´one is useful to brew beer whereas the other it is not.´

the former is useful to brew beer whereas the latter it is not.(is this the right way?)

Sorry guys, please be patient with me.

Cheers

 

Crystal is fine in Porters and Stouts.. if anything I think it's needed to give it layers of complexity. They are malt forward beers.

IPA, however, aren't.

 

When I first moved to all grain, I kept using crystal malts, about a pound, give or take, in every beer (except my very first AG beer, which was a smash). After a while, I started getting more and more into smash beers. These made me appreciate the vast amount of complexity, body, color, and flavor you can get just from base malts. I'm quite anxious to get to my double-smash with munich/vienna and belma/cascade hops, but I'm more interested in the malt combo than the hops. Vienna/cascade smash came out really tasty (a cascade/citrus-bomb, but the body was great). Munich makes another fantastic body/color/flavorful base (and works with pretty generous amounts of hops too, if that's your aim). Maris otter makes a great medium-hopped beer, or malt-forward beer if you like. Maris otter/simcoe smash also came out really nice. Even plain old 2-row made a couple of nice smash beers for me, one was a saison smash (with 3711, little hops), and one was a long boil with fuggles, which was mild but very well balanced and well received.

I would brew any of these again without changing the recipe: munich/bravo, petite saison smash with 2-row and 3711* fermented at 64F, maris otter/simcoe, and vienna/cascade. Some of the others I've brewed I would change the hops schedule, add another ingredient (maybe even crystal malt), or change the hops completely.

Once you see how much complexity you can get with simple recipes, you'll have more appreciation of the additional complexity you can obtain with more complex ones. So I would suggest that you try something like a smash, whether it's a true smash or just a beer where the base malts provide the body and malt flavor of the beer, without using any crystal malt at all.

NOT on your porter or stout tho! Use crystal malt!

None of my good experiences with smash beers have turned me off crystal malt tho. I'm just more in tune for knowing why I want a particular ingredient in my beer now. Sometimes I'll still add crystal malt, even to an IPA (although I'll also consider the amount carefully before just dumping it in, especially for an IPA).

I've rather enjoyed this thread, BTW. I've learnt so much.

*I think it had 2.5 oz of serebrianka hops, but too lazy to look it up

 

In regards to porters, I've made some tasty ones both with and without crystal malts.

 

My simcoe/maris otter smash used 4 oz simcoe, 0.5 bittering and the rest late, no dry hop. PERFECT amount of simcoe for what I was aiming for (hoppier side of pale ale, yet still pretty clean. Probably would be "cleaner" with 2-row but it didn't matter that much).

I also like the silkier stouts and porters. I am hoping my own oatmeal stout I'll be brewing shortly will come out this way. It's got lots of oatmeal, no shortage of crystal, and some love too.

 

“some love too.” I thought the ‘secret’ ingredient was lard?

Cheers!

 

I started with extract for a couple of years, most kits will have carapil, and crystal for those kits. The carapil and crystal were generally all around a pound to soak. I do not care for IPA's or hop flavors, more of a malt dude. I can see how crystal could mess up hop tastes if one were not careful with the crystal types or amounts.

I agree on the statements that say use < 5% of the grist. Also talking crystal 20 through crystal 120 all do different things. C120 is the darkest. I could see using more C20, but not the same amount for C120.

I personally like the C60, vienna malts. I can see on cutting out crystal when going all grain, can cut carapil too

 

I started with extract for a couple of years, most kits will have carapil, and crystal for those kits. The carapil and crystal were generally all around a pound to soak. I do not care for IPA's or hop flavors, more of a malt dude. I can see how crystal could mess up hop tastes if one were not careful with the crystal types or amounts.

I agree on the statements that say use < 5% of the grist. Also talking crystal 20 through crystal 120 all do different things. C120 is the darkest. I could see using more C20, but not the same amount for C120.

I personally like the C60, vienna malts. I can see on cutting out crystal when going all grain, can cut carapil too

 

Hey...was thinking of this thread not long ago...read the November BYO with an article on the difference between crystal and caramel malt. Long & short many maltsters will call a true crystal malt a caramel malt, but a true caramel malt is not fully converted and should probably be mashed while a crystal malt does not need to be mashed as the starch is fully converted. Anyway, good read for anybody interested in learning the nuances...

 

No, it's not cheating, but the Crystal Police Feds can still bust you for it

 

I don't need no stinking badges either Cheers

 

The problem is that in today's gestapo crystal climate, the crystal police are frequently found beating down the opposition. It's become habit, and the true reasons for the roots of the conflict have been lost to time.

Crystal has its place and its uses, and I am not in any way against it. A lot of people seem to be anti-crystal with IPAs in particular, thinking that added sugar for dryness is the only path to bliss, and crystal malts are the polar opposite of what an IPA ingredient should be. I am not in this "club," BTW. I like IPAs both with and without crystal malt, with and without added sugar for dryness.

Much of what it boils down to is taste, make them how you like them, and ignore any naysayers.

 

When it comes to GF WCIPA I think people's perception of dryness is not coming from the lack of malt sweetness, but the amount of hops used for bittering and dryhopping. IMO is was big in both directions but the hop character helped to clean the palate leaving behind a dryness on the tongue. All moot now imo - haven't had one that seem to capture this since upgraded to the new facility - they seem kind of tilted to the malt side for me.