Has anyone had any luck with using self cultured lactobacillus? I recently created a culture from a mixture of DME and water that had been boiled and cooled to 120 degrees, i then added about a cup of grains to the mixture and let sit with an airlock for 3 days. On brew day, i cooled the wort down to 120 degrees after making sure the culture had been rewarmed to about the same and pitched. The culture smelled as if it had worked properly and i immediately got active fermentation on the wort. I pitched the regular yeast 2 days later. At secondary it seemed like it might be slightly more tart than the batch i didn't use the lacto on, but tasted good none the less. I bottled over the weekend and the flavor was neither sour or desirable. It's hard to even describe the flavor. I've tried reading up on this but haven't found any clear examples. Is this something that will develop over time (2-3 months), or is this as "good" as its going to get?
I have also "pitched" from grain into wort to culture Lacto. I have access to microbiology equipment, and was somewhat surprised that yeast clearly outnumbered bacteria in the culture. I plan to plate the mixed culture to separate the bugs. From prior experience, I would definitely give this some time. Souring bugs are notorious for taking a long time to do their stuff.
The grain is covered in a mixture of lacto, wild yeast, and a host of other bacteria. Some of the wild yeast are able to work at temperatures of upwards of 110 F. Which means that as the temp of your starter drops yeast are becoming active and then enteric bacteria as the temps continues to drop. You would need to keep the temp at a constant 120F to make this work. You may also be able to make the starter about 3% ABV and prevent any of the enterics from growing because they are not alcohol tolerant. (You could use some vodka or ever clear to add to the starter) This will not prevent wild yeast from growing but will cut down on any other bacteria.
It sounds like what I'm dealing with is the flavors from wild yeast. If i had to compare it to anything it reminds me of some flavors I've come across when naturally fermenting cider. It's already been bottled, so i guess it doesn't hurt to see if it's changed in a couple of months, but I'm not too hopeful. Thanks for the input, i will definitely try this again.
Rule of thumb: don't package a beer that has an undesirable flavor. Reason 1: Give that flavor a chance to clear up in the fermenter. Some off flavors are a result of intermediate metabolic products of the yeast. If you give them sufficient contact time with the beer, they may go away. In the case of a bug beer, more time might develop more sourness, depending on temps, hopping levels, time, and probably lots of other things ("it depends" is always a good answer to questions about biological systems!). Reason 2: Expecting a beer that sucks to get better in the bottle is a total crapshoot. We hear stories of lousy bottles that were forgotten about, that were rediscovered to be fantastic. But how many untold stories are there of lousy beer that never got better, or lousy beer that actually got worse. I think you are just better off trying to figure out what wrong and so you can brew a new batch. If the beer doesn't taste good coming out of the fermenter, I'm a skeptic and say you are probably wasting your time with it and should cut your losses. Of course, YMMV.
I agree, typically I would have left this in the fermenter longer if I didn't need the space. I had already washed all the bottles, siphoned into the bottling bucket, and was faced with dumping it or bottling it and just letting it sit. I'm not hopeful that it will get better with time but I have had some batches, specifically cider, that have improved. As it was only a 3 gallon batch (thankfully) I went ahead and bottled it. If in two months it hasn't improved, i will drain pour the rest. Also, as gross as this sounds, I will likely share this beer with friends. Not because I want to be a dick, but because it's often hard to describe the off flavors, and as homebrewers I feel they could appreciate the lesson I've learned.
Go to homebrewtalk.com and search "Berliner weisse many ways". It's three pages of anecdotes of just about every type of lacto souring around.
Thanks, that's where I originally got the idea from, or a post very similar. There just tends to be a ton of back and forth and competing info on those threads...
Currently, I'm eating (drinking) my words, as I sip from this evening's second glass of an oaked biere de garde, which is 8 months old. I'm finding that whatever I disliked about this beer 2 months ago is no longer bothering me, and I am contemplating a third bottle. Either this beer has improved with age, or I did. Perhas we can add "oak" as an exception to Reason 2? But I guess I never felt the beer sucked; it just was slightly off-putting.
This may be a new reason for me to use a secondary--crapshoot! I can't even think of the last time I used a scondary.
That's actually what I meant, which is sort of the exact opposite of what I said. Blame it on my regression.
If anyone is interested in an update on this.... Let it sit in the bottle for the last month or so, it did not improve at all, no sour quality, very chemical tasting, drain poured the rest of the bottled batch. As it did ferment completely, I assume that some wild yeast took over and gave it the terrible flavor. When I try this again, I will make sure to keep it at a constant 120 degrees to hopefully ward off the wild yeasts and let the lacto do it's job.
This is why I do all of my "handful of grain" souring pre-boil. Through the boil and fermentation you'll drive out a lot of the undesired flavors and get a cleaner (but less complex) sourness. I've had a few berlinerweisses where the brewers let whatever was on the grain run the whole sour process without a boil. It's interesting for a few sips but I don't care for the flavor enough to want to keep drinking it.
