Dark Saison - what hops to use?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Lukass, Oct 18, 2016.

Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Lukass

    Lukass Pooh-Bah (2,891) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah

    I've been wanting to try the Yeast Bay's Saison Blend II for a while, and figured with cooler weather coming, a dark saison would be a nice fit for this strain. The grain bill has been pretty much decided upon (although I'm open to suggestions), but mainly I've been toying with what sort of hops to use. I thought cascade could play nicely with the "Grapefruit/orange zest, and mild earthiness/spiciness" that the YB Saison II blend supposedly puts out. I'm shooting for around 30 IBUs.

    Here are the recipe specifics:

    Anticipated OG: 1.07
    Anticipated FG: 1.01
    IBUs: 30
    ABV: 7.9%

    Grain
    11 lb Pale 2-row
    2.5 lb Munich
    12 oz Wheat malt
    8 oz Special B
    8 oz Midnight Wheat

    Single infusion mash at 150°F (66°C) for 75 minutes.

    Boil
    1 oz Cascade at 60 minutes
    0.5 oz Cascade at 10 minutes
    1 oz Cascade Flameout

    Yeast
    Yeast Bay's Saison II blend

    What are your thoughts on using cascade? You think it would make for an interesting flavor combo in a dark saison, or should I stick with more traditional saison hops like Saaz?

    TIA
     
  2. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    I'm a big Cascade lover but think it's inappropriate for a Saison . . . the blackness is your centerpiece of uniqueness, wouldn't push another boundary. The old standbys of EKG, Saaz, Styrain Goldings sure seem to work well, plus I've had good luck with Triskell and Strisselsplat (French). Your grain bill looks great . . . for a Dubbel. I would ditch the Spec B and cut back on the Munich. Consider substituting some sugar for grain, maybe a target FG < 1.004. Is pilsner malt available to you?
     
    jsullivan02130 and billandsuz like this.
  3. Lukass

    Lukass Pooh-Bah (2,891) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah

    Thanks. I thought that too with adding sugar to help dry it out some more. Pilsner malt is available.. I'm guessing I should probably substitute that for the 2-row. The recipe is a work in progress so I'll definitely consider these suggestions. I've used Saaz enough on saisons, but Strisselspalt has always intrigued me. May use a high alpha hop like warrior for the bittering to get it to around 20 IBU, then late additions of Strisselspalt to get it to around 30.
     
  4. Hogue2112

    Hogue2112 Initiate (0) Apr 7, 2016 Ohio

    Let us know what you update the grain bill to! I have a opening for a beer next weekend, would be cool to A B the finished products.
     
    Lukass likes this.
  5. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    Absolutely, I regularly use hop extract in my low IBU Belgians, or any leftover high alpha hops will do the same job. Often you see Legacy recipes that show bittering with Saaz . . . using a low AA hop for this task is a waste (IMO), my guess is the old-timey Monks did this because it's all they had.

    Triskell and Sprisselsplat have nobel'esque type properties, so expect subtle aromas/flavors to compliment the yeast esters . . . very different than Cascade. Suggest using them late only (flameout and/or DH). This is what DuPont uses and they can't keep their DH version on the shelf.
     
    Lukass likes this.
  6. Lukass

    Lukass Pooh-Bah (2,891) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah

    After some re-thinking, here is what I've got for this:

    Grain
    12 lb Pilsner malt
    12 oz Midnight Wheat
    4 oz Carafa III

    1 lb corn sugar (added to fermenter during high krausen)

    Single infusion mash at 150°F (66°C) for 75 minutes.
    Sparge at 168ºF for 15 minutes

    Boil
    0.5-0.75 oz Warrior at 60 minutes (shooting for 30-35 IBU)
    1 oz East Kent Goldings at Flameout

    Yeast
    Yeast Bay's Saison II blend

    I considered using a Belgian candi syrup like D90, but didn't feel like spending another $7 on that. Corn sugar will work just as well with that I'm trying to do.

    Also considered 1 lb of rye malt or a bit of chocolate rye, but figured the yeast will be the contributor to any sort of spicy characteristic.
     
  7. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    No sharp-shooting intended, but 8% of the grain bill is roasted grain . . . at this level you can expect the beer to have a noticeable roasted flavor. This isn't necessarily bad, but it's not expected in a Saison.

    There is black and then there is real dark black. Consider cutting back for a SRM in the 20 - 30 range.
     
  8. Lukass

    Lukass Pooh-Bah (2,891) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah

    I was also thinking of doing a cold extraction with the midnight wheat and adding it to the boil. I did this with black roasted barley for a dark saison back in February (it's still souring in secondary now), but the samples were good. This is only my second Dark Saison, and this one's not getting brett or bacteria, so my plan is to keg this 3-4 weeks after brewing.

    I'm looking for a smooth, roasty dark grain flavor, with minimal astringency. Maybe a little bite from the roasted grain, but not dominating like a stout.
     
    #8 Lukass, Oct 19, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2016
  9. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    I actually liked your original recipe, with the exception of the hops. Saphir would be great for this.
     
    Lukass likes this.
  10. Lukass

    Lukass Pooh-Bah (2,891) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah

    So I'm veering off the original topic of this thread, but I'm debating how to treat the dark grains for this recipe. Thinking of mashing with 12 lb Pilsner, 1 lb rye malt, and 4 oz carafa III. Cold steeping 8 oz of midnight wheat and adding it to the boil. I've never used midnight wheat before.. think that's a good plan to get some dark grain flavor incorporated, but not be too harsh?
     
  11. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    What is your computed SRM with 4 oz CIII and 8 oz of midnight? I would think one or the other would get you solidly into the black range. I used 8 oz of midnight wheat (conventional mash) to color 5 gal of black-rye IPA (no Carafa) and it was decently black . . . taste was okay, no real roastiness present. I regularly color with CIII up to an ounce or so, would expect 4 oz to be pushing it.

    If you really want dark grain flavor I would go back to the Spec B/Chocolate.
     
    Lukass likes this.
  12. Lukass

    Lukass Pooh-Bah (2,891) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah

    I really didn't figure out what the SRM would be for this.. if it turned out jet black I wouldn't be disappointed, I just don't wanna overdo it on any of the dark grains and have it taste like a stout fermented with a saison strain. Thanks for the heads up on using midnight wheat. Maybe I'll cold steep with some roasted barley to get the smoother roast flavors and use a bit of chocolate malt in the mash
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.