DDH-ing and threshold

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by BruChef, Jan 13, 2021.

  1. BruChef

    BruChef Initiate (165) Nov 8, 2009 New York

    Brewers and people who know brewers: Are ipas that have ddh versions actually hopped with twice the amount of the original recipe? Is it a legal requirement to do so if stated on the product?

    Also, there is debate about the IBU threshold that one can detect before it doesn’t make a difference. Is there a threshold for dry-hopping? Can a beer only retain so much dry hop flavor/aroma? I think we know a beer can become vegetal or tannic so are those the guideline thresholds for dry hop over saturation? I remember reading a great article about how you can only dry hop a beer so much (before the hazy days) and I recall that New Belgium did a bunch of lab experiments to prove it. Anyone recall that article?
     
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  2. Brian29

    Brian29 Devotee (458) Nov 15, 2013 Ohio
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    It is most commonly an indication not of hop volume, but rather number of times the dry hop occurred. Although some brewers will double the dry hop volume and call it ddh too. It is a relatively new term and there is not a definitive definition.

    There definitely is a saturation level whereas it is either moot or even damaging to the end result.
     
    #2 Brian29, Jan 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  3. zid

    zid Meyvn (1,267) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    It means whatever the brewer decides it means for that particular beer (despite what the above post states). So the answer to the first question is "sometimes," and the answer to the second question is "no." (and regarding your other questions, brewers do talk of crossing a "saturation point" and wasting hops)
     
  4. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,878) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Dr. Thomas Shellhammer studied dry hop amounts and the result of that study (using both analytical instrumentation and a trained panel of tasters) is that there is indeed a saturation effect for dry hop amounts:

    “The first conclusion is that above 8 g/L the extraction of hop oils and the aroma contributions from those oils are nearly saturated. To use Shellhammer’s language dry hopping with more than 8 g/L (1.1 oz/gal or 2.1 lbs/bbl) is an inefficient use of raw materials.”

    https://patspints.com/2019/01/16/the-surprising-science-of-dry-hopping-lessons-from-tom-shellhammer/

    You can read more details in the above linked article.

    Cheers!
     
  5. BBThunderbolt

    BBThunderbolt Poo-Bah (8,022) Sep 24, 2007 Kiribati
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    Generally, the double is the number of times it's been dry hopped. Sure, there's some brewers who use it to refer to quantity, but they are a minority.

    It's also generally accepted that the human palate can't really tell the difference once the IBUs get over about 100, so there is a point where using Moar Hops! is just wasting resources and money.
     
  6. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Poo-Bah (2,908) May 30, 2005 Michigan
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    I believe that the DDH method that is defined as twice dry hopped (rather than double volume of hops) typically uses a hop choice (or a combo choice) for the first hopping that is known to be a flavoring hop, and the second hop choice typically is a hop that is best known for it's aroma. Sometimes the hops of each addition can do double duty and be the same hop or combo.
     
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  7. zid

    zid Meyvn (1,267) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    This part of my post looks crazy after @Brian29 edited his post. Please ignore it. :slight_smile:
     
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  8. Rydawg30

    Rydawg30 Initiate (5) Sep 17, 2019 Utah

    DDH-ing can really mean whatever the brewer wants it to mean. You get a lot of the vegetal or grassy notes from leaving the hops in too long on the cold side (dry hopping). Ideally to not get that you dry hop in stages and remove ones you threw in first. Which to me is double dry hopping, but again its whatever the brewer thinks it is.
     
  9. ichorNet

    ichorNet Poo-Bah (1,923) Mar 16, 2010 Massachusetts
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    Isomerization of the alpha acids in hops which contribute to bitterness only happens in the boil, which is before yeast is pitched and fermentation begins. Dry-hopping (even multi-phase, or “double” dry-hopping) only occurs after yeast has been pitched (some brewers dry-hop during/throughout fermentation and some wait until fermentation has completed). In other words, dry-hopping happens once the liquid is cold and alpha-acids are no longer being extracted from the plant matter, so this phase does not contribute IBUs/bitterness.
     
  10. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Poo-Bah (1,824) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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    I'm busy brewing today, but there are bitter compounds that hops impart when dry hopping.

    Will post some more on this and links later.
     
  11. ichorNet

    ichorNet Poo-Bah (1,923) Mar 16, 2010 Massachusetts
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    Yeah, I just quickly looked it up. It seems like the iso-alpha acids are extracted during dry-hopping (which is akin to cold-steeping), but not isomerized. Instead, it seems like polyphenols are what can contribute to bitterness and astringency in dry-hopped beers. Interesting. Thanks for giving me something new to look into. Also, please do post more and add some links! Cheers and happy brew day.
     
  12. nc41

    nc41 Poo-Bah (2,686) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
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    Instead of using more expensive hops if the goal is enamel stripping bitterness, just drop the malts to unbalance it a bit. Doesn’t have to be that awful session stuff, but you can do the d
    same at higher abv levels too. I think :slight_smile:
     
  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,878) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    More precisely it is alpha acids which are extracted during dry hoping, Also another compound called humulinones is extracted as well. You can read more in the below link; I will provide a snippet here:

    “One of the most fascinating hop studies that came out in 2016, was by authors John Maye, Robert Smith, and Jeremy Leker, which found (against traditional wisdom) that dry hopping can influence the bitterness of a beer. I covered the study in detail in an article called, “Increasing Bitterness by Dry Hopping,” which I would recommend reading prior to this article which serves as an update of sorts. In short, the study found that humulinones, which are more soluble than iso-alpha-acids are formed by the oxidation of alpha acids in hops and are 66% as bitter as iso-alpha-acids and have a “smoother” bitterness. The solubility of humulinones is the important part, unlike alpha-acids which are introduced into beer through boiling (becoming iso-alpha-acids), humulinones can be introduced into beer at normal temperatures via dry hopping, which means they can affect the final beer bitterness levels. Alpha acids also dissolve into beer with dry hopping and its concentration can be even higher than humulinones because hops contain so much more alpha-acids than humulinones. However, the bittering potential of alpha-acids is likely around 10% as bitter as iso-alpha-acids.”

    http://scottjanish.com/dry-hopping-effect-bitterness-ibu-testing/

    Cheers
     
  14. billandsuz

    billandsuz Devotee (456) Sep 1, 2004 New York

    A lot of really good questions.

    As others have stated, double dry hop means whatever the hell the brewer wants it to mean. No laws that I am aware of.

    A quick and simple overview of how hops are incorporated into beer. And this is meant to be quick and simple, as the chemistry can get complex. But it is important to understand the function of hops in beer, and how the hops are employed in each particular beer.

    • Volatility refers to a compounds ability to change phase, that is liquid to vapor phase in this instance. Temperature change triggers the volatile change. So water requires quite a bit of heat (100C) to get from liquid to vapor, whereas Acetone changes phase at a bit more than half that temperature.
    • Hops contain dozens of important volatile compounds. Some compounds are bitter. Some are "dank". Some are floral. Some are earthy, and so on. Some provide flavor. Some provide aroma, which is closely related to flavor. Some are undesirable.
    • Each hop variety contains a wide range of these compounds and their relative presence is what defines the characteristics of the hop. Harsh bitterness, subtle pine aroma and so on.
    • Getting hop bitterness into beer requires lots of boiling. The stuff is a pine resin after all, and you don't get that glue to dissolve into liquid without a ton of boiling.
    • Because some of the most desirable hop aromas are also some of the most volatile, all the boiling just drives off the aroma, and most of the flavor as well.
    So now we get to dry hopping.
    Stuff enough hops into a cold liquid and some of the delicate aromas will make their way into the beer. But because we are dealing with a thick resin (think pine cone resin) lots of hops are needed to get any result. This is dry hopping. No heat. And it costs quite a bit because hops are not cheap. And dry hops soak up beer like a sponge, which gets tossed with the hops. So that's beer that is made and not sold.

    Voila, dry hopped beer. Need more aroma? Solution, add more hops! Still not enough? Add more! Want to get people to get really excited about the great hop aroma you have managed to jam into your world beating, most exciting, must buy, greatest beer ever made in the history of brewing?
    Keep it up though and soon you are packing the beer full of all the other volatiles, including the compounds you don't want. And beer like any liquid, will become saturated. Eventually the crappy compounds overcome the delicate aromas you wanted to get in there in the first place, and the beer becomes a glass of cow pasture on a hot day. And our threshold to identify odors is not universal, so that too. Some odors easily overpower everything else. Think sulfur.

    Double Dry Hop the mofo, and then never shut up about it.
    That is Double Dry Hopping in a nutshell.

    Cheers
     
    #14 billandsuz, Jan 14, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
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  15. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Poo-Bah (1,824) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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    Jack covered one link.

    See if you can find the MBAA podcast with John Paul Maye.
     
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  16. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (3,006) Mar 12, 2009 New York
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    While it's true that the human palate is "incapable" of "tasting" above 100 IBU's. I don't think that means we are incapable of sensing it. I compare it to the lowest range of our hearing, meaning human ears are incapable to hear sounds below that pitch. Phil Lesh's bass guitar produces sounds in a register too low to hear, but they definitely can be experienced, and they definitely add to the overall experience. I don't believe that making a recipe that showcases effects of overhopping beyond the point which human palates can "taste" is necessarily a waste, and I have tasted beers that bear this out.
     
  17. BBThunderbolt

    BBThunderbolt Poo-Bah (8,022) Sep 24, 2007 Kiribati
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    Why does it always come back to The Dead with you?
     
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  18. HouseofWortship

    HouseofWortship Savant (913) May 3, 2016 Illinois
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    What's the threshold before hops become toxic to the human body?
     
  19. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (3,006) Mar 12, 2009 New York
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    :grin::grin::grin: Hmm, I'll have to ask my analyst when he gets released from prison this time.
     
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  20. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Poo-Bah (1,824) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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  21. BBThunderbolt

    BBThunderbolt Poo-Bah (8,022) Sep 24, 2007 Kiribati
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    Well, jeez, look, nobody wants to accept an accepted definition cuz it hurtz their feels.

    I are heckin' shocked.
     
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  22. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (1,812) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
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    Heckin bamboozled!

    Most of the breweries I buy from indicate double the amount of hops. The brewery and beer I am really thinking about is weldwerks juicy bits. That beer has multiple dry hop additions already but is not labeled as DDH until it receives double the amount of dry hops. I also think the same pertains to Odd13 beers as well. @Tarheel4985
     
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  23. BruChef

    BruChef Initiate (165) Nov 8, 2009 New York

    Thanks for all the responses so far. Kind of reminds me of Hoppin’ Frog Boris/Doris/Toris. Each slightly higher in abv but Nothing about Doris and Toris are double or triple versions of Boris. I think a lot of it has to do with marketing.
     
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  24. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Defender (665) Mar 28, 2009 California

    Yeah but what about triple dry hopping?

    What does it mean exactly? As stated above it seems to be whatever the brewery wants it to be. To me I always thought that it was based on the number of times a beer has been dry hopped. The thought is by using multiple dry hopping you can add more. I think for the average consumer it means double the hops. But overall it implies that there are a lot of dry hops. How much exactly, who knows.

    I don’t care what the label says on this it’s fantastic!!
    [​IMG]
     
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  25. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,878) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Yup, you answered that question correctly.
    For commercial breweries that ferment in tall CCV tanks there is a rationale for performing multiple dry hop additions (some brewers refer to this a layering). When you make the first dry hop addition the hops will settle to the cone in the bottom of the CCV over a couple/few days and also be covered by yeast that flocculate (i.e., drop out of suspension). Once these hops get covered they are no longer in contact with the fermenting beer and no longer contributing essential oils. A second (or third) addition at a later time will stay in solution for a couple/few days after that addition and be able to contribute essential oils (hop aroma contribution). Whether a third addition is really needed or more like a gimmick? Maybe this a function of the individual brewery's equipment setup.

    Cheers!
     
  26. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Poo-Bah (2,908) May 30, 2005 Michigan
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    I'd logical that in a 5-gallon batch, triple dry hopping with 4 ounces of hops (12 total and 4 ounces were used in the boil) is likely the same effect whether the additions were added three times or 12 ounces only once.

    It's also likely that you get the same effect with double dry hopping that same beer with 2x 6 ounces, or just dry hopping once with 12 ounces. It's a numbers game aka marketing. But maybe it attracts triple the number of the hop heads.
     
  27. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,878) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    The difference between homebrewing vessels (e.g., plastic buckets, carboys) and commercial brewing vessels (e.g., tall CCV tanks) is a very differing aspect ratio (width vs. height). Given that homebrewing vessels have a width not too different from height would suggest that you are correct here in this assessment. In contrast for commercial brewing vessels there is likely a benefit for conducting multiple additions as I detailed above (post #25).

    Cheers!
     
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  28. bubseymour

    bubseymour Poo-Bah (3,169) Oct 30, 2010 Maryland
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    . To the consumer, It means 3x the price.
     
  29. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Defender (665) Mar 28, 2009 California

    The DDH Pliny specifies it’s a two staged dry hop. I’ve homebrewed the OG Pliny the Elder and the recipe from Vinnie is a two staged DH already. Found it interesting that RR specified that is is a two stage step. Maybe they did double the dry hops on both stages????

    [​IMG]
     
  30. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,878) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    I too have homebrewed the Vinnie Cilurzo published recipe for Pliny the Elder and you are indeed correct that two stages of dry hopping are specified:

    "1.00 oz (28 g) Columbus* 13.90% A.A. Dry Hop (12 to 14 days total)
    1.00 oz (28 g) Centennial 9.10% A.A. Dry Hop (12 to 14 days total)
    1.00 oz (28 g) Simcoe 12.30% A.A. Dry Hop (12 to 14 days total)

    0.25 oz (7 g) Columbus* 13.90% A.A. Dry Hop (5 days to go in dry hop)
    0.25 oz (7 g) Centennial 9.10% A.A. Dry Hop (5 days to go in dry hop)
    0.25 oz (7 g) Simcoe 12.30% A.A. Dry Hop (5 days to go in dry hop)"

    As to why Russian River is now 'branding' two versions of PtE with one advertising DDH?

    More hop quantities for the one labeled DDH?

    Cheers!
     
    #30 JackHorzempa, Jan 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
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  31. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Defender (665) Mar 28, 2009 California

    I do know that when Pliny for prez came out it was labeled/marketed as a double dry hopped version of PtE with some new hops. This is the Pliny for president recipe just with a different name. The two stage writing is new though.

    goes back to what you and many have said. It’s whatever the brewer/brewery wants it to be
     
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  32. eagles22

    eagles22 Disciple (398) Sep 7, 2008 Pennsylvania
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  33. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,878) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Triple > Double:

    "Dry hopped three separate times throughout fermentation with Australian Galaxy, US Ekuanot, and New Zealand Cascade."

    With the above the specific details of what triple hopped is spelled out.

    Cheers!
     
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  34. eagles22

    eagles22 Disciple (398) Sep 7, 2008 Pennsylvania
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    Okay but is there really that much of a difference is what I should of said
     
  35. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,878) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Boy, you got me here. There is just so many variables including amounts per addition.

    Would a beer using a total of x lbs. of dry hopping spread over three additions vs. two additions provide an increased hop aroma? Beats me.

    I personally would think the most important variable here is the quality of the hops being used for the dry hopping process and I am unaware of any way to objectively assess this aspect.

    Cheers!
     
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  36. Tarheel4985

    Tarheel4985 Initiate (84) Sep 14, 2010 Colorado
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    Yep, we use the term quite literally when we double the total dry hop quantity of the base beer. That being said, we've found that some varietals and base beers are not great candidates for the "double dry hop" treatment. So while it markets well, double dry hopping doesn't always produce better results than the base beer.
     
    #36 Tarheel4985, Jan 26, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
  37. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,878) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Thank you so much for being open and transparent here.

    I have had the opinion for quite some time that this was more of a marketing thing vs. an improvement of the beer quality.

    I recognize that for a brewery who is looking to optimize sales this may be a 'necessary evil' but for me as a beer consumer I am not a fan of this marketing strategy.

    Cheers!
     
  38. Tarheel4985

    Tarheel4985 Initiate (84) Sep 14, 2010 Colorado
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    It's a fine line to walk and admittedly, we didn't find our own limit until we pushed too far. But once it became clear that certain threshold/hop rates yielded empirically worse results, we backed off from that ledge. That being said, I do think DDH Juicy Bits is the best IPA we put out on a somewhat regular basis, but we've learned a lot about the importance of conditioning times for heavily dry hopped beers (even with a centrifuge), which has gone a long way to improve that specific brand.
     
  39. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Defender (665) Mar 28, 2009 California

    Now I get when there is an OG version then a new version is labeled double dry hopped. To me that would indicate that the recipe has double the dry hops. I see most NE Style iPad labeled double dry hopped but there isn’t an OG version. So if it means double the dry hops, what are they doubling?
     
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  40. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,878) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Can you please provide more input here?

    Is this a hop creep thing? Do you need to 'age' your heavily dry hopped beers longer to account/manage the hop creep aspect?

    Cheers!
     
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