DEBC seeking handout to sue TABC

Discussion in 'Southwest' started by nathanmiller, Sep 16, 2015.

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  1. jamescain

    jamescain Meyvn (1,002) Jul 14, 2009 Texas
    Beer Trader

    Do I think it looks good that they are using crowd funding for litigation? No, but they are hardly the first brewery to use it to fund something that benefits the brewery. That being said, at the end of the day no one has to give them money. As long as they're up front about what they're doing with the money I could care less about then asking for it since I'm going to choose to ignore them and keep my money for other unnecessary purchases.
     
  2. cfh64

    cfh64 Crusader (775) Aug 16, 2005 Texas
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    Bump...bump...bump...now I have DEBC's attention :wink:

    As there's just a small part of the problem. I'd have more trust in Satan with my first born than I would anything that comes out of their mouths.
     
  3. BenOdeski

    BenOdeski Initiate (0) Jul 1, 2014 Texas

    I am not a huge fan of their beer, but I will drink it on occasion if its is what is offered/available wherever I am.

    I will also say I don't agree with the route they are taking to raise money for their own cause, but I won't give them any money do I also don't really care that they are trying this.

    There seems to be plenty of hate for the brewery and the "deepellum douche bags", did they do something particularly offensive that I missed or are some of you just hating on the area and the people there because they fit a stereotype you don't necessarily care for?

    I have always considered deep ellum to be a cool and unique part of Dallas and just curious why its generating so much hate.
     
  4. kmello69

    kmello69 Defender (618) Nov 27, 2011 Texas
    Beer Trader

    I'm not going to recount all of the history here, but it should be telling that SO MANY people's response has been "Oh Deep Ellum? I'd never support something they were doing."

    My experience with them is that they will do something if they see a way that it benefits them, and they will not involve themselves if they don't (the issue of selling distribution rights comes to mind).

    They have been unwilling to support law changes if there's not some direct financial benefit for them. They've also been very rude, dismissive and outright aggressive toward people who've challenged them on their actions, in public forums. So I think now thats coming back to bite them in the ass, when they want people to get behind them on this, and trust them that they'll use the $ for what they say they'll use it for.

    Personally, I'd rather donate directly to Open the Taps, and would recommend others do the same.
     
  5. cfh64

    cfh64 Crusader (775) Aug 16, 2005 Texas
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    I've been sitting here for 5 mins staring at my phone with my finger pointed at the screen and I don't even know where to start. I'll say this, I kind of live in the area (DFW) and while there are some great people here, there is also an abundance of d'bags so it's hard to single out just DEBC's "fan boys".

    As far as their business tactics, ownership, and the way they treat customers and people in general leaves a lot to be desired (putting it as politely as possible). If I weren't being polite and without going into specifics because I don't have all day, they treat people like shit, they're arrogant, unapologetic and are shady as hell.

    Edit: I know it's not as specific as an answer as your looking for but their history of pissing people off runs deep and I seriously don't have time to explain just a small portion of what I know. There are also other things that I wouldn't want to share in a public Internet forum.
     
    #45 cfh64, Sep 18, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
  6. Monkeypuker

    Monkeypuker Initiate (143) Sep 4, 2013 Texas
    Beer Trader



    They are a business and not a charity. Don't understand why everyone's getting hot under the collar if a brewery is pushing for a change that will benefit all TX breweries and not just them alone. If you dont like the guys at deep ellum, that's a different matter but it seems that people here are mixing the two issues which clearly are two separate issues.
     
    Clarkson likes this.
  7. kmello69

    kmello69 Defender (618) Nov 27, 2011 Texas
    Beer Trader

    You're missing my point. This time they might be doing something that will benefit everyone, but in the past they've opposed things that would have benefited other breweries, for the sake of their own financial gain. You can't expect people to get behind you when you want something, if you weren't there to help them when they needed help.

    Just one opinion. I don't like what I've seen of them in terms of how they treat people (and I know a lot more than what's just been seen publicly) and I don't like the way they've sought to put their own financial gain in front of what might benefit brewers and breweries as a whole. If people want to support them, best of luck, and I hope they're successful, but I'll keep sending checks to organizations like Open the Taps, whose focus has ALWAYS been on trying to help all breweries.
     
  8. cfh64

    cfh64 Crusader (775) Aug 16, 2005 Texas
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    1.) Even if it's a cause I support, based on their history, they are the last people I would want leading the charge on this. To be blunt, I don't trust them with my money, don't really trust they are actually in it to help other breweries and the consumer, and I don't think they are the ones who should be spear heading this issue.

    2.) I'd like to see other more reputable breweries join the cause to make sure everyone is equally represented. If push came to shove they would throw every mf'er under the bus for themselves and probably laugh about it.

    3.) I know this is a shitty analogy but just because I may support equal rights doesn't mean I should feel obligated to donate to Al Sharpton. This is just me but giving any money to them in the form of a "donation" is akin to sleeping with the devil.
     
  9. sethsticles

    sethsticles Initiate (172) May 6, 2014 California
    Beer Trader

    I was the one that used the phrase hipster fanboys. I'm not hating on Deep Ellum itself, @BenOdeski is right - it is a very cool and unique part of Dallas. I love a lot of places that are down there. Pecan Lodge. Angry Dog. Uncle Ubers. Cane Rosso. BrainDead Brewing is also down there :wink: I used hipster because when I have actually visited the brewery/taproom that's just about all I see. Probably because it is located in Deep Ellum. Nothing against the hipster vibe - I have plenty of hipster friends. I even have friends that will call me a hipster because I have a beard, an undercut and like my local non-starbucks coffee. Anywhere I go in town and see people order DEBC they act like it's the best thing they've put in their face since the last gauge earring. But hey, everyone has their personal beer taste. Then there are the times where DEBC posts some hate towards some local institution on facebook. The hoards (read: fanboys) come out and cry for the owners' heads of whomever DEBC is attacking. Usually unprovoked. I say fanboys because they love DEBC so much that DEBC can never be in the wrong. And it hasn't just been one time. Seeing things like that rubs me the wrong way. Maybe I coined too broad of a term hipster fanboy?

    At any rate, I do see a difference in this and giving money to OTT. I think OTT approaches it in the right way. They understand that the consumer should decide what issues get addressed during the next session, thus the polls where consumers vote on most important issues. They have also been lobbying long enough that they understand that legislators can only tolerate so many beer-related bills before it's too much. OTT is also about spreading awareness and the good word of craft beer. Litigation is never fun and does not spread the good word of craft beer. Litigation can also take YEARS. I understand that the Texas legislative session just ended and we won't see it again until 2017 but this lawsuit could take longer than that. Even if a judgement came by the end of 2015 the state could appeal and appeal and appeal until they're red in the face (get it? it's a red state...) I generally dislike lobbying but it can be effective for small groups who want their voice heard. Yes, there have been successful beer-related lawsuits in the past. But those groups/brewers weren't looking for handouts and to share the financial risk of losing with the consumer.
     
    nsheehan, raffy313 and cfh64 like this.
  10. Krumb

    Krumb Initiate (94) Jan 30, 2008 Texas
    Beer Trader

    But aren't they asking for charity? As a business? I think that's one of the points of contention here, in addition to their history/reputation.
     
  11. Bluestar

    Bluestar Initiate (0) Mar 5, 2012 Texas

    You hit the nail on the head right there for me.

    You're a business not a charity - so don't ask me for a f'ing handout.

    If your business is viable, or the action that you need cash for is viable, go find a loan.

    I get it, you don't want to take a risk with your own hard earned money or assets. I didn't want to take out a loan to buy a house, but no one funded my kickstarter.... and my house doesn't have a cash revenue stream... it's just a money pit.
     
  12. BenOdeski

    BenOdeski Initiate (0) Jul 1, 2014 Texas

    Oh ok, I totally get it now....Why do you care to be so polite if they "treat people like shit" and are "shady as hell"?

    You don't have time to explain but you have time to stare at your phone for 5 min?

    Is there another thread that explains some of it you can point me to?
     
  13. dkw0063

    dkw0063 Disciple (331) Dec 1, 2012 Texas
    Beer Trader

    It might take a lot longer than 5 minutes... And any thread that talks about DEBC says the same stuff.
     
    cfh64 likes this.
  14. cfh64

    cfh64 Crusader (775) Aug 16, 2005 Texas
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    Let' see, do you want me to name the several bar and restaurant owners I know personally who have nothing postiive to say about their customer service? Not gonna happen.

    Trust me, you don't want me to air more dirty laundry here. I've said all I'm going to say and I'll leave it at that. If you got the first "clue" I made in my original post then maybe that would make you think twice about calling me out.

    Edit: and yes, I don't currently have 5 minutes. Since that seems to bother you, I was at the gym on a stationary bike. It would have taken much more time than that.
     
    #54 cfh64, Sep 18, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
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  15. BenOdeski

    BenOdeski Initiate (0) Jul 1, 2014 Texas

    lol riding a bike inside
     
  16. Monkeypuker

    Monkeypuker Initiate (143) Sep 4, 2013 Texas
    Beer Trader

    Your example of using people's money via kickstarter to fund a house for you makes no sense. That house is for you and you alone and not for your neighbors and your community to come and live in your house indefinitely right? Similarly, is DEBC asking for your money to expand their brewery, warehouse or whatever else? No. They're crowd funding a petition that if successful will benefit all brewers in TX.

    Why should DEBC alone shoulder the burden of legal costs when there is a benefit to several breweries as well?

    It looks like most of you guys have some hang ups with the DEBC crew and no one's really addressing the larger issue on hand which is the law that will enable brewers to sell direct to you.
     
  17. sethsticles

    sethsticles Initiate (172) May 6, 2014 California
    Beer Trader

    Many people have already addressed this saying take it up privately with other Texas breweries to collectively go after the TABC. No one is saying they should do it alone.
     
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  18. cfh64

    cfh64 Crusader (775) Aug 16, 2005 Texas
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    I understand what you're trying to say but let me ask you, would you donate money to a company or person for a cause you support even if you had no faith or trust in that person/company? Again, if there were some more reputable breweries involved I'd reconsider.
     
  19. ACGypsy

    ACGypsy Initiate (148) Mar 24, 2014 Texas

    I like Deep Ellum's IPA a lot. I think they do a great job of keeping it fresh and not loading the local market with a ton at one time.

    However, I am definitely just a beer drinker, never met any of the owners and I have no connections with the industry. So I am surprised by all the harsh feelings towards the brewery. This appeal for the public to contribute a lawsuit that will benefit their business and not help me at all does seem classless. Maybe some people are stupid enough to contribute. I won't but I still will drink their beer.
     
    Chadzero likes this.
  20. Monkeypuker

    Monkeypuker Initiate (143) Sep 4, 2013 Texas
    Beer Trader

    Well DEBC is not a JK where people all over TX have had a experience in visiting so no comments on how they are or how crappily they treat people. So unless people in the know such as yourself share some of your experiences with the rest of us, I guess we are allowed to give them the benefit of the doubt, surely?
     
  21. cfh64

    cfh64 Crusader (775) Aug 16, 2005 Texas
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    Understood and you have a point. Feel free to give them the benefit of the doubt, that's your choice and I respect that. I can't say with certainity but I would assume they know that they don't have the best reputation in the state, hopefully they'll work on changing that.
     
    Monkeypuker likes this.
  22. Clarkson

    Clarkson Aspirant (276) Feb 26, 2013 Texas
    Beer Trader

    Any successful businessman will tell you to use other peoples people's money at the lowest cost to you, not your own money.

    Perhaps there are not enough Type A personalities in TX craft beer who want to go this aggressive route? Maybe the Queen is just ok with status quo.

    Let's also not forget that they were one of the first (if not the first) brewery in Dallas proper and did so by challenging zoning. Perhaps they don't want to take a chance with the Legislature and the big beer $$ lobbyists two years from now and feel they have a better chance through litigation. Interpretation of the law may be easier than passing a law.

    Lawyers vs. Lobbyists. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    I don't personally like the guys, they definitely need a lesson in PR. Bit I buy their fresh IPA occasionally and will support their endeavor, not financially, but in spirit.
     
    Techichi likes this.
  23. ABW

    ABW Initiate (129) May 26, 2014 Texas
    Beer Trader

    I would love to buy beer from my favorite Texas breweries. I'm not really sure what all the fuss is about. If you don't want to donate don't donate. People love to bitch i guess.
     
  24. sethsticles

    sethsticles Initiate (172) May 6, 2014 California
    Beer Trader

    the mods should rename the southwest forums
     
  25. Krumb

    Krumb Initiate (94) Jan 30, 2008 Texas
    Beer Trader

    fixed
     
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  26. Krumb

    Krumb Initiate (94) Jan 30, 2008 Texas
    Beer Trader

    cardio, bro? really?
     
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  27. cfh64

    cfh64 Crusader (775) Aug 16, 2005 Texas
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    I know, it's weak but I do it inside so it really doesn't count.
     
    Krumb likes this.
  28. jamescain

    jamescain Meyvn (1,002) Jul 14, 2009 Texas
    Beer Trader

    Did you get any workout tips from @miikezombie ?
     
  29. cfh64

    cfh64 Crusader (775) Aug 16, 2005 Texas
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    Haha...didn't need to, I get 'em right here in the good 'ole SW forum. Unfortunately I never made it down there, he was one of the people I definitely wanted to see......and get work out advice from.
     
  30. H0rnedFr0gs

    H0rnedFr0gs Disciple (303) Mar 12, 2012 Texas
    Beer Trader

    Example 1:
    http://dallas.eater.com/2014/9/11/6...ing-co-versus-scotch-sausage-in-a-very-public

    Some publicly available information for those looking. The original posts will be hard to find on Facebook but it was a shit show.

    Example 2:
    http://beerblog.dallasnews.com/2014...n-lodges-exclusive-boss-lady-rustic-red.html/

    I'm not saying the unnamed 'citizen' was a representative from DEBC but draw a line between the 2 stories based on a number of factors (time and geography).

    EDIT:grinning:raw your own conclusions regarding this public information and realize that numerous people have hinted at a depth of stories unrelated to these examples.
     
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  31. BenOdeski

    BenOdeski Initiate (0) Jul 1, 2014 Texas

    "I'm not saying the unnamed 'citizen' was a representative from DEBC but draw a line between the 2 stories based on a number of factors (time and geography)." ---Yes you are, either own it or don't say it.

    Has anyone been to Scotch and Sausage recently? Those two examples don't move the needle for me. I don't really believe a business would go public with a made up accusation like pay-to-play, I applaud them for calling the practice out.

    I ran into a friend yesterday who used to manage a local bar. I asked him about DEBC, he had nothing but positive things to say.

    The only conclusion I can draw is that there are a bunch of haters out there with internet courage.
     
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  32. erushing

    erushing Disciple (303) Dec 4, 2014 Texas
    Beer Trader

    I don't know anything about DEBC or have any horse in this fight, but this is one of the most naive and silly things I've read in a while. This isn't Coca-Cola with a huge PR firm. It's some tiny local business. See the Oasis/NBB dust-up for an example of what goes public with different sized businesses.
     
  33. BenOdeski

    BenOdeski Initiate (0) Jul 1, 2014 Texas

    I do not think it is naive or silly to believe a company would refrain from making up false accusations to post on facebook. If they really did fabricate the pay-to-play accusation against Scotch and Sausage then that is the lowest possible thing they could possibly do, and would prove all of the things previously said about DEBC in the thread as true.

    So, who out there has any real reason to convince us the accusation of pay to play was made up by DEBC just to smear a restaurant that wouldn't serve their beer?
     
  34. reverseapachemaster

    reverseapachemaster Aspirant (244) Sep 21, 2012 Texas
    Beer Trader

    There's a huge difference between OTT and DEBC. When OTT takes in money they do so as a nonprofit and have limitations on what they do with that money. DEBC has no such limitations. It can decide in a month to nonsuit and pocket the contributions. There will be no recourse.

    DEBC is a pariah among its industry. Look at who is not getting involved in the lawsuit--although many breweries have a financial opportunity if the suit is successful--and who is involved. That should tell you pretty much everything you need to know.
     
  35. randal

    randal Initiate (81) Apr 21, 2004 Colorado

    Not at all.

    Case in point - Colorado. Production breweries there also sell bottles, cans, growlers, kegs, etc. to go as well as have distributors. It doesn't bite into any distributors profits and the case can be made that it actually *helps* the distributors. If, when visiting a brewery, a person likes the beer and it allowed to take a six pack home, when they want more they are way more likely to go get it from a store than trek back to the brewery (which may have limited hours or be a long distance away). In effect, a brewery tour is advertising for a brewery and increases off-site sales.
     
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  36. cfh64

    cfh64 Crusader (775) Aug 16, 2005 Texas
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    Yeah dude, myself, several other BA's, reddit users, local businesses, bars and other breweries formed a DEBC hate group based on false accusations because we don't want them to succeed since they're such nice guys with ethical business practices.

    Look back at other BA threads, do you really think they have such a bad reputation based on nothing? I'm glad you and a few others haven't had any negative experiences but you would have to be naive to completely discount and ignore the several negative comments that not just myself but many others have to say about DEBC. There is no other brewery in the state with as much controversy or negativity surrounding it than DEBC. Why is that?
     
  37. jbeezification

    jbeezification Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2012 Texas

    Deep Ellum employee confirmed.
     
  38. H0rnedFr0gs

    H0rnedFr0gs Disciple (303) Mar 12, 2012 Texas
    Beer Trader

    I used the highlighted wording because I don't actually know. If I did know for certain you can believe I would say it. I don't need Internet courage to do so. But you make a fair point.

    The other story does not require any logical leaps and bounds. Clearly this brewery will use TABC when it suits them and fight TABC when it suits them (with your money). That's the broader point here, a beggar being a chooser.
     
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  39. Clarkson

    Clarkson Aspirant (276) Feb 26, 2013 Texas
    Beer Trader

    Here's the problem with comparing any other state's set up with TX - we are a state of good ol' boy distributors who will hoard every last dime of their BILLIONS of dollars. That's how they got all the money - Silver Eagle, BEK, Andrews - they are some of the largest in the country. Hate to say it, but I don't think we will ever see brewery only special releases or probably even shelf beer at a brewery who has a distribution partner. They don't care about beer, they care about money. And we are talking about change here, not some sort of business practice that has been around and is already accepted by all.

    I hope I'm wrong, but I used to work for those guys, and I'll tell you what, they don't give a fuck about Johnny picking up a six pack while he's visiting the brewery. That's their money.
     
  40. aschwab

    aschwab Devotee (483) Mar 3, 2009 Texas
    Beer Trader

    Jester King has a distributor.
     
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