Deceptive Volume - Misleading For Consumers

There's a bit of trickery at play here. Probably many know this - with the cans and "widget" devices, the nitrogen lives inside the widget until you pop the top and the gas escapes from the widget ball (Guiness) or the reservoir device on the bottom of the can (Ball cans). I don't know the status of the Guiness IP, but we were told we can't get the cans/widgets they use but we got a shitload of the Ball cans wasting space somewhere... In bottles, it's even tougher. Nitrogen is roughly 100X less soluble in liquid than CO2 (.025 grams Nitrogen/KG versus 2.5 grams CO2/KG), so it is difficult to almost impossible to get it into the liquid and keep it there when bottling (or canning conventionally). We've been playing with it for "nitro juices" in cans and I can tell you it doesn't work when we follow our standard carbonation process swapping N2 for CO2 in the brite tank. The nitrogen outgasses immediately, generating a messy foam that dies in a second when the product hits atmospheric pressure. No cool visual cascade when poured from the can (no "device'). In other words, you can't just swap the gasses. Sooo...one "trick", as far as I understand it, is to play with the gas ratios (like 70% nitrogen/30% CO2) and then use tanks with higher pressure rating than the typical brite tank - up around 25 psi or so allowing you to use higher nitrogen pressure. My understanding from someone in the industry who knows is that is what Left Hand does and the process is still quite inconsistent in terms of performance. By what I've read, you can then get the "cascade" visual effect that way and the mouthfeel most of the time. The other way it's commonly done is on tap with a nitrogen injector running at high pressure. The visual only has to last for a minute, minute and a half tops? The remaining bubbles are what they are, I guess.

There's ways to do it, it ain't necessarily easy, the control of the desired functionality in a bottle seems dubious to me at best, and the bottom line is the widget does take up physical volume in the can. But, 9.6 ounces in a 12 ounce can might seem like a pretty big widget. And guess what - it actually appears to be a BFW...there's videos and a link embedded in the Ball nitro can website showing how it works and that is approximately to scale. Basically flush with nitrogen which gets inside the widget (wherever it lives in the can), fill on top, purge head with nitrogen, seal it up, apparently store it upside down(?). I suspect that in addition to the volume of the widget, they might be leaving some space in the can because that nitrogen wants out right now when the top gets popped - we made some spectacular juice fountains with 12 ounce cans filled to 11.5 ounces...

And there's supposedly one company that has developed technology that eliminates the need for the widget and might solve the consistency issue in bottled nitro beer. Affordable technology - don't know yet.

 

Or just drink cask.

 

Great thread.

The biggest offender I think would be North Coast - Barrel-Aged Old Rasputin. The bottles are 500ml (and super expensive) but they really want you to think you're getting a bomber.

Stone also does (did?) this with their cinquecento series, although I expect this kind of crap from them.

 

Larry, beers packaged with nitrogen can provide a pleasing visual (the cascading effect you discussed) but for my palate it 'dumbs down' the flavor profile in beer. What do your taste testers think about the flavor of your "nitro juices"?

Cheers!

 

How does that make you think you're getting a 22 oz. beer?

 

Well, it's not completely understood yet. We can get the nitrogen to stay put for such a short time, it's hard to get an accurate taste profile. BUT what we do think is that it kind of creates a smoother profile with less astringency and less of a bit from the phenolics. So maybe "dumbed down" in some sense, but definitely different by the quick gulp method of tasting.

 

Definitely affordable technology - under $50K versus Ball's ridiculous minimum can order and added cost. Watching some videos trying to understand how it actually works beyond just s spurt of liquid N2 on top of the liquid - not learning much, a bit short on the details.

But I did learn Left Hand is among the breweries using this technology. Oskar Blues and Victory were also mentioned.

 

As long as it's correctly labeled the rest of the decision is up to me.

 

It's still a technological limitation. Both scenarios remove 2oz of liquid (product, in this case) from the consumer.

But the relevant question is - does a major can manufacturer produce a can in 14.4oz size? And then: does Southern Tier's canning line accommodate this size? And then: how does this impact shipping boxes? How does this impact packing in trucks? The warehouse?

 

I’m the opposite way, sort of. I wish more high gravity beers were available in smaller formats, like the ~8 oz nip bottles.

The smaller bottles are nearly impossible to find, unfortunately.

 

I don't mind the 7 or 8 oz bottles, it's all the random sizes, anything that .something ounces. Those stockpile cans really annoy me, and my hatred of 22s is well documented here.

 

To clarify on the excellent summary @LeRose has supplied, some more inside baseball for those of us who are nerds.

Nitrogen is not soluble in liquid. About 100x less so. So at ordinary pressure it is not useful for anything except to push beer through a system, which is useful indeed.

Guinness et al on tap is unique and different from the can.

Nitro stout is typically less than 2.2 vols of carbonation. That is not much at all. The N gas is used to push the beer through a restriction plate. A disc with a few small holes, aka a sparkler. Guinness requires 75% N and 25% CO2. With this mix applied at 33 psi the beer is not getting 33 psi of 100% CO2. If it were 33 psi of 100% CO2 the beer would over-carbonate. But due to partial pressures the low vols are maintained. The minimal CO2 gas dissolved in the liquid is whipped as it pushes through the sparkler. Nitro beer is really flat beer. If you get a growler it will be miserable within a few minutes. A pint is flat really quickly too, if it it sits too long. And the carbonic acid is minimal, so the beer tastes a bit sweet.

This mix gas has been used waaaay too often for every other beer not called Guinness. The Guinness rep tells the owner that yes, you need our special blend gas and special faucet but don't worry because all your other beers can also use this blend. Which is 100% bull fucking shite. Of course Guinness sells, well, Guinnes and Red Stripe. So truthfully, the sales rep does not give a rats ass about those other flat kegs. But you have to give those bastards credit. The beer is everywhere, and they managed to convince everyone to 1, switch to a special gas and 2, use a unique faucet. *

Other blends are 60/40 and 70/30. Nitrogen is employed in every long draw system and the 60/40 or 70/30 blend covers most bases. McDantim out of Helena, Wyoming is the sole manufacturer of gas blenders, and they work perfectly.

On to the Nitro can.

There are two varieties, and both are worthy of Modern Marvels.
The explanation provided by others is great but really, look up the available online content to get a good idea how it works. It really is quite something.

Lastly, Nitro beer is the easiest way to push the buttons of your local CAMRA nerd or ordinary cask ale fan.. Those people lose their shit over this stuff. Go ahead and have fun but be warned!

Cheers

*The Guinness faucet is always supplied. And it is proprietary. The Guinness tap marker is riveted into the faucet, it can not be removed like ordinary faucets. So if an owner wanted to switch out Guinness for another N Stout they need to remove and replace the entire faucet, which is about 10 times more effort than the typical apathetic owner could ever manage.
Clever bastards.

 

Carbonic acid is acid, and it has aroma and taste of its own.
Nitrogen is inert. Flavorless and odorless.

So substitute N for CO2 and there is a definite a lack of acidic bite. This allows the malt to come through and basically makes the beer unbalanced IMO. Most N stouts are quite sweet and any hop aroma is muddled at best.

Nitro IPAs were a thing for a while but I believe most people, rightly, were turned off by an IPA without any balls.

N Coffee is a thing too. It makes for an interesting cup.
Cheers.

 

Left hand came to mind immediately as they sell 12oz bottles filled with 12oz of beer.
Also, I wish everything came in a pint can.

 

Have you seen the bottle?

 

I looked up pictures.

I could see someone confusing it for a 750 mL bottle, but not a bomber.

I've never seen a bomber with that bottle shape, and I've definitely never seen a bomber corked and caged.

 

Just popping back in to say thanks for the education on can sizes and the expense/difficulty associated with nonstandard can volumes that some people provided in response to my earlier post. Very informative.

 

If only that were possible! I adore proper cask but I rarely find it in the U.S. - just because it's in a cask doesn't mean it's cask-conditioned beer.

 

It's easily distinguishable from a bomber, it's the wrong shape, has a cork and cage, and is visibly smaller when it's on the shelf next to big bottles of regular ol Rasputin.
It's also a fairly standard beer bottle. Not like they acquired some obscure bottles to be deceptive