decoction resources?

There is a 3 part video on decoction by Kai Troester. Below is part 1.

Cheers!

 

You need to become familiar with this page, watch the videos at the bottom of it.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Decoction_Mashing

Edit - Jack beat me on the videos. Read the page.

 

As an avid Brewer of all things German, and having an automated decoction setup. I advise against decoction. On our scale (homebrew) due to the square cube laws, and having to splash and slosh grains around, it will actually do more harm than good. I do love and miss decoction though, and Kai is your guy for that.

 

What harm does decoction mashing do?

Cheers!

 

Your insights never cease to amaze me.

I was going to say, definitely skip any protein rest around 122 F -- it doesn't do what people think it does, and hurts more than it helps.

But to skip decoction altogether.... that's, like, the right thing, except people are always going to want to try it anyway. I do it sometimes just for the "fun" of it, even if it doesn't help anything in the homebrew setting.

@SFACRKnight, I can tell you this: the Beerery knows what he's talking about. His recommendations might not always be feasible for the average joe, or go along with what we feel like doing, but still valid and worth consideration.

I agree that IF you ARE going to do it anyway, then look up Kai Troester and Hockhurz, and do whatever he says.

 

Don't get me wrong, Decoction was and still is a great way to maximize fermentable extract, and its really the only way to fully utilize wheat malt. But on the German Macro scale they have breweries that are low oxygen, and while I don't want to get into that debate, it really matters here. They are pumping loose slurry from the bottom, and transferring it gently, meanwhile heating it gently with steam. With the square cube law in the brewing vessels even if they didn't purge the vessels with nitrogen (which most do), they have very little exposed surface area to the beer for it to absorb oxygen. We (homebrewers) have to scoop and slosh. With the boiling of decoction you are creating melanoidans, but they may not actually be helping you in this cause and can lead to accelerated staling of the beer. Its best practice to reduce boil kettle boil times as well with this because of the TBA (Thiobarbituric acid index), which is a real measured thing in beer brewing, and is not good. Basically the harder and longer you boil wort, the more staling products you create. You may be saying, staling, but I have never had stale beer. I have never had a beer that has cardboard or sherry flavors. Sure, that may be. Unfortunately staling has been falsely perceived in the homebrewing community. Stage 1 of staling beer is a "loss of brewery fresh flavor", what does that mean? You know that pale ale or IPA you just kegged and you noticed the hops fading, or the caramalts coming forward, or malt falling off. Thats stage 1. You see malt and hops have many antioxidant properties, and when those get used up, then the beer starts to lose flavor.

Sorry for the long winded response but it encompasses so many things.

 

Thanks for the kind words.

Having done tons of decoctions, and then doing step mashing and comparing the sensory analysis of them, I concluded my beer suffered from decoction. Trust me, I wish it didn't. I love the romantic notion of decoction, and doing them felt so rewarding...and that smell!

But at the end of the day taste and stability is king.

 

Kai's site and his video are definitely one of the best resources for decoction. The thing I personally enjoy most about decoction is the wonderful melanoidin flavors that you get. You can simulate this taste somewhat with such specialty malts as Melanoidin, Vienna, or Munich, but nothing compares to the actual melanoidins that are made through the decoction process (boiling the grains). I have an acute taste and special enjoyment for melanoidins, but I understand that not everyone has that trait, and some people are not even able to detect the taste. Melanoidins are one thing that primarily attracts me to certain types of beers such as German Pilsners. Even before I knew what melanoidins were, the beers that attracted me most were specifically those that contained noticeable amounts of melanoidins.

 

And there are small breweries in Franconia who brew very differently than what you detail here. They are basically 'sloshing' as well. Are you stating that these small Franconian breweries are incapable of producing quality lagers?

Are you just referring to the boiling of wort here?

I am well aware that staling can mean more than "cardboard" or "sherry" but I appreciate you taking the time to opine here.

I remain confused as to why you claim that conducting a decoction mash would (or could) result in "harm".

Cheers!

 

Did the beers you brewed using decoction mashing exhibit "stale" qualities?

Cheers!

 

No, I've never noticed a 'stale' quality, whatever that may be. As far as I could tell, they were much more enjoyable than when I would brew the same recipe without doing a decoction.

 

He's talking about Hot Side Aeration, I reckon.

 

Some breweries in Germany still do decoctions, but only for wheat beers and Dark beers. They step mash for Helles and Pilsner for example.

 

Based on all the things I've read from the Beerery and others, here's how I sum it up, in my own personal theory:

Any aromas you can sense in the mash, in the boil, during the fermentation, and during packaging, are all LOSSES that you will NOT be able to sense in the final packaged product. This goes for malt, hops, yeast character, you name it. So, if you instead were to brew as gently as humanly possible, and keep sloshing and aeration out of the brewery (whether hot side, cold side, wherever), these things you would lose from brewing more lackadaisically will no longer be losses, but will be retained in the finished brew.

He'll say it's all about minimizing oxygen, and he may be right. Personally it's easier for me to understand if I paraphrase all the science as my new rule of thumb above. I myself intend to brew as "gently" as humanly possible going forward to minimize losses. Call it prevention of oxygenation/aeration/HSA, whatever floats your boat. I'll just call it "gentle".

My theory is probably wrong in some respects scientifically, and I'm okay with that. Regardless, this is the gist of what I've picked up from reviewing a lot of recent scientific discussions, which my feeble mind doesn't fully comprehend and maybe never will, but anyway.

 

The topic of LOw Dissolved Oxygen brewing (LODO) has been actively discussed on BA and other forums for over a year

The details of LODO are in this German Forum paper: http://www.germanbrewing.net/docs/Brewing-Bavarian-Helles.pdf

At last year’s HomebrewCon I discussed this topic with Brad Smith and a number of others.

In a podcast Dr. Charlie Bamforth discussed this as well,

Introducing oxygen on the cold side is indeed a real problem and the best thing that commercial breweries can do is implement very low DO packaging lines and store their packaged beers cold.

The effects of HSA is a much smaller issue and the fact that a healthy fermentation has the ability to ‘mop up’ any of the ‘stale stuff’ that may have occurred on the hot side further makes HSA a topic of small concern to homebrewers (and commercial brewers as well).

Cheers!

 

In short-

Oxidation, accelerated staling, and a nearly un-distinguishable end product.

As for the smaller breweries, I am fully aware of that. I am not saying they can't produce good beer. For lack of a better reference take Zum Urgie, they are about as abusive as anyone could be to their beers. At the Brewery fresh they are quite good. Get a bottle older than a week, they are not even close to the same.

Boiling is boiling, whether it be in docoction or boiling, or both.

I think another common misconception is that light lager beers are all pilsner malt, and most of the time this could be father from the truth. There are very few Pilsners on the market that actually use only pils malt, and the ones that do have it custom malted to a higher EBC than we get anyways. Low oxygen brew houses see 25-35% color reduction due to the non-oxidation browning of the wort. A pilsner only beer is going to be a shade darker than water. I have a pilsner I just brewed with 95% 2l pilsner malt, and 5% carahell.


it's as pale as pale can get. Take for instance bitburger, if you taste melonoidans there it is most likely due to the large amount ~15% munich malt.
Here is a pilsner with 85% 2l pilsner and 15% light munich.


I guess where I am going with this is the sweetness you taste is most likely from some higher color ( or cara) malt along with the beer, and not the actual decoction itself.

Again, I am not out to change anyone's minds, just offer insight.

 

From the post by BA TheBeerery above:

"You may be saying, staling, but I have never had stale beer. I have never had a beer that has cardboard or sherry flavors. Sure, that may be. Unfortunately staling has been falsely perceived in the homebrewing community. Stage 1 of staling beer is a "loss of brewery fresh flavor", what does that mean? You know that pale ale or IPA you just kegged and you noticed the hops fading, or the caramalts coming forward, or malt falling off. Thats stage 1. You see malt and hops have many antioxidant properties, and when those get used up, then the beer starts to lose flavor."

Cheers!

 

As a writer of that paper, I firstly apologize at the tone. It was snobby at best. It never sat right with me so I broke off and started my own sight and procedures. They are here:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/ Along with our paper here: http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/low-oxygen-methods/

Again I never wanted to get into this, but if you want to check out the resources page http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/

There is plenty of "fun" reading to do. I don't want this to end up a debate. You can either chose to believe, or not.. This is just a hobby for most.


FYI, Bamforth kinda changed his tune in his new book series.

Cheers

 

I saw that, but it doesn't make much sense to me. I believe that ALL beers lose the initial freshness of the hops with time. Lagers/Pilsners are lagered for a long time before they are ready to drink, sometimes close to 2 months, so the degrading of the "freshness" of the hops over time is not as noticeable as would be a double IPA from the time it's kegged and ready to drink, to a month or two later. I'm not sure how the decoction process would significantly change the rate of freshness of the hops, especially with lagers, since they are already close to 2 months old by the time you drink it..