decoction resources?

They do, for commercials they target 12 months freshness. The time frame in which that happens is the key factor here. We have the luxury here actually because we don't have to repackage and ship everywhere and have it abused. How soon do you notice it happen on a pale ale/ipa? That is where there is room for improvement. I have a 14 month old pale ale batch, I keep around for a freshness sensory test. Being I removed all oxygen from the hot side and from the cold side (transfer to a spunding keg with extract remaining, and serve out of it.), it literally tastes 2 weeks old. I give a sample to unexpecting patrons and they are always blown away. Previously with my old methods of normal brewing, dropping and force carb, I saw declines starting at 2 weeks.

So you are totally correct that it happens to all beers, but the timeframe in which it happens is important.

 

That is quite possible, but how would decoction additionally affect it if the same oxygen removal process was used?

 

But there are indeed some beers that are brewed with all Pilsner Malt such as the original Pilsner of Pilsner Urquell. Some other example are Firestone Walker Pivo Pils, Sly Fox Pikeland Pils,...

Cheers!

 

Pilsner Urquell is also still made with a triple decoction process, giving it those wonderful caramel tones. It's one of my favorite pilsners.

 

In which book does Bamforth discuss this topic?

Cheers!

 

Sure, like I said there are some. I leave out all US "Pilsner" beers as I strongly dislike them, as to me the are too Americanized by being way too hoppy/late hops and lacking any malt depth!

Short of Trumer, I can't think of an all pils malt pils from a larger European brewery right now. Even PU.. I'm not so sure, I don't like the beer enough to really diseect it... Just because they say its an all barley beer, doesn't mean anything caramalts are barley too! Zee Germans are sneaky about that!

 

I can understand you have a preference from a beer consumption perspective but they should be discussed since not everybody has your personal palate.

Everything I have read about Pilsner Urquell is that it is brewed with 100% Pilsner Malt and the PU folks are Czech (not German).

Cheers!

 

I am assuming you are referring to the book Freshness: Practical Guides for Beer Quality since the Flavor book was published in 2014 and the Foam book in 2012.

A quick web search reveals:

“One of the main points I make in [his new book, Freshness: Practical Guides for Beer Quality], is that no matter what the beer is, the lower the oxygen level in the finished beer and the lower the temperature at which you store the beer, the fresher it will remain for longer.”

“If you haven’t invested in refrigerated distribution and if your packaging line is giving you crazy high levels of oxygen in the bottle, you’re wasting your time. Work from the back.”

http://www.brewsnews.com.au/2017/07/nine-month-best-before-dates-ridiculous-says-beer-professor/

The above quotes are consistent with what I posted previously in that as regards freshness the most import aspects are:

· Low TPO values in the packaged beer

· Continually store the beer cold

Cheers!

 

Come on.... You think I don't know PU is Czech!

Yea, have you seen bitburger, or W, or Ayinger, or the like say they use any cara or bruhmalz? Just because its not there on a website, doesn't mean anything.

 

Freshness is 2017.

I am done, sorry for the thread derail.


To sum up, I recommend Kai if you want to do a decoction.

Good Luck-

Prost

 

Interesting discussion here. Hope these questions aren't too terribly off topic. If so, I apologize to the OP.

So, you're essentially saying that staling shouldn't be thought of as just trans-2-nonenal formation, but as oxidation of any and all compounds in beer, including hop-related ones?

How long does it take said beer to show signs of staling?

 

Absolutely!

I am not sure yet, this is the test one. All others get consumed way before then.

 

I know that I can't answer this from a scientific standpoint because the decoction process involves more than just boiling wort. If it were just wort, it'd be a different story.

This has always been my issue with the subject of HSA. If there is excess oxygen introduced into solution during your hot side procedures, said oxygen would need to react with other chemical compounds and form compounds responsible for staling BEFORE the yeast is pitched, because extra oxygen in solution will simply be used in the log phase of yeast growth.

I just don't know if there is enough time to initiate enough of those reactions to make a difference in the couple of hours that it takes to brew a beer.

If anyone has information (anecdotal or otherwise) to the contrary, please feel free to prove me wrong.

 

The real scientific data and studies show that these reactions dramatically accelerate with temperature. IT goes something like this.... Hot strike water laden with oxygen, meets LOX activated in the acrospire of the malt upon crushing and meeting oxygen in the dough in phase you have less than 1 minute of time frame for irreversible damage. Those lovely mashing malt aromas are your precious malt flavor (and antioxidants) evaporating. Low oxygen mashing and brewhouse have literally ZERO smell coming from them. So while you are correct that boiling does remove o2 the damage is already done, not to mention the fact that o2 laden wort browns faster than non, and you will get more darkening. If you boil hard as mentioned before TBI comes into play. O2 when pitching yeast is the only time oxygen is to meet beer, according to all the German professional brewing texts, and class works. Anyone who has questions please do check out the site. I have walked both sides of the line, I have nearly 1500 batches behind me at this point (only about 500 low oxygen), so I can speak to both.

 

HSA is a real thing. Counting on boiling and yeast to reverse it is magical thinking. Where the debate should start is with "how much impact does it have on flavor, aroma, and stability?"

Personally, I don't go to great lengths to prevent O2 on the hot side (as opposed to the post pitch cold side), though I do treat the mash, boil, and cool down pretty gently. My sense is that HSA is one of my smaller worry beads.

 

Indeed.

Here's a good conversation starter: http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/10/th...ow-oxygen-brewing-method-exbeeriment-results/

 

That is about the second poorest example of a "test" of low oxygen I have seen.

 

Notice I said "good conversation starter" not "irrefutable scientific evidence".