Decoction with stout

Sounds interesting. Why would you want to try it? I would imagine that in something so heavy on roast malt, the the effects of decoction on flavor would probably be lost.

 

I’ve done it on a Czech dark lager... however I didn’t boil the roasted malt. Added it at after the last Decoction (think I did 2?). I think for a 5% beer it might be interesting and contribute to some depth. Much higher and I’m not so sure it would be worth it???

 

Are Czech darks (or more specifically, your Czech dark) roasty tasting? Or are the roast malt levels low enough to add color without much flavor contribution? I would think that matters as to whether decoction adds value to the effort (with greater impact in the beer with lower roast taste) .

 

Honestly I’ve probably never had a true to style Czech Dark lager. I’ve never been to the Czech Republic and I’ve never had a version brewed by the select few breweries in the US that have the desire and the equipment to do it the traditional way.

The beer I’ve made a few times is based off the grain bill you can find for U Fleku pretty easily online. From what I’ve read it’s sort of the reference or was at one time.

I think you’d be hard pressed to find a lager brewed at the traditional breweries in the Czech Republic that isn’t decocted.

I’ve messed with adding darker grains late in the mash with many beers but the idea for this was spurred on by a podcast with Jeff Bagby discussing the Czech Dark lager he made with Ashleigh and Bill at Bierstadt. They didn’t mention a Decoction schedule I don’t think (they decoct everything) but they specifically mentioned adding the roast malt at the end of the mash to hopefully minimize roast In the final beer.

From everything I can find a the Czech dark lagers tend to be more of a darker Pilsner vs a Schwarzbier which typically has more roast character.

 

The only Czech-style dark lager I've tried had the roast character of a Schwarzbier (which is still much lower than a stout) with the hop character of a Pilsner. No idea if it was decocted or not, but I really like the malt character on that brewery's Czech-style Pils, so?

 

I had a number of Czech Dark Lagers during my two week vacation to the Czech Republic last year. My favorites were:

• Bernard Tmavý Ležák
• U Fleků Tmavý Ležák
• Cerna Svine 13° Tmavý Speciál
• Matuška Tmavé special

Below is a photo of Bernard Tmavý Ležák:



And here is a photo of U Fleků Tmavý Ležák:



Here is how the BJCP discusses the roast aspect of this beer style (with emphasis in bold by me):

“Overall Impression: A rich, dark, malty Czech lager with a roast character that can vary from almost absent to quite prominent. Malty with an interesting and complex flavor profile, with variable levels of hopping providing a range of possible interpretations.”

For all of the numerous Czech Dark Lagers that I drank in the Czech Republic none of them were at either end of the spectrum detailed above: none were absent of roast and none had prominent roast. They were somewhere in between.

I have been annually homebrewing a batch of Tmavý Ležák since 2013 and below is how I would describe this beer:

Appearance: A dark chestnut brown color with a red hue. A tan head with excellent head retention as the beer is consumed.

Aroma: A notable but subtle aroma of roasty (coffee-like) and a hint of cocoa.

Taste: The flavor follows the nose with a pleasing combination of subtle chocolate and coffee-like. A low/moderate bitterness.

Mouthfeel: There is a soft/creamy mouthfeel with an off-dry finish.

Cheers!

 

While I really like all of the talk about Czech-style dark lagers (which I'd like to try more of, from what I've tried), @Smokebox_79 what is it that you want to achieve with a decoction on a stout?

Sounds like the consensus is to add the dark malts at vorlauf, after all the decoctions are done.

 

Care to share more details of your recipe and procedures, Jack? I’ve never had the opportunity to try a beer of this style, and brewing one may be my best hope, given my limited access to imports and curtailed travel plans to any place I might find one.

 

I highly doubt your efforts will be worth it. Don’t let my opinion stop you though, report back if you do try it.

 

Evan Rail has an article in the June-July 2020 issue of Craft Beer and Brewing Magazine (which has become my favorite beer magazine by a longshot) in which he interviews Kristen England about decoction. The article includes a recipe for England's Bent Brewstillery Black Josef 15° Tmavý Special (a strong Czech dark lager). The recipe includes pilsner, Caramunich II & III, CaraBohemian, and Carafa I, II, & III (not the special). He does a single decoction to step from 143 to 162. All of the malts are mashed in at the beginning. He also says you can take it up to 19°P (1.079) to make a "stupid dangerous" Czech porter.

The article ends with this:
"While decoction is best known for its use in styles such as pale lager and hefeweizen, some brewers have used it effectively for other beers. England recommends trying a decoction mash with many malt-forward styles that are commonly brewed with infusion, including Belgian witbier, Baltic porter, dark mild, Scottish light ale, and Grodziskie."

So I say go for it and see what happens. Can't see how decoction can make any dark beer worse.

 

I do a step mash on every brew mostly amber lagers or ales. It doesn't require anymore effort and I fine more malt flavor coming out of every batch.