Desperate for a solution to my oxidation problems!

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by MiScusi, Mar 19, 2015.

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  1. MiScusi

    MiScusi Pooh-Bah (1,803) Feb 12, 2005 California
    Pooh-Bah

    My gut feeling is this is happening during bottling because my beers taste great at that point. I know oxidation can happen prior to that and not show up until later, but I don't see any reason recent batches would become oxidized while in the primary carboy for 2 weeks like every other beer.

    Background- I've been brewing since 2006 (though some years only a couple batches) and my process hasn't changed. I go from primary fermenter to bottling bucket via an autosiphon, then the bottling bucket to bottles via autosiphon with a bottling wand (no spring) attached. Small volume of water with sugar is boiled 10-15 minutes then added just before siphon. I mean, your standard bottling procedure.

    So the last 3 batches, a Saison, IPA, and IPA have gone completely STALE. I mean, they tasted fantastic at bottling and then 2-3 weeks later while carbonating they have gone stale. Oxidized. Significantly darker, weird sweet candy stale caramel flavor... ya know, stale beer. And by darker I mean they've gone from srm 5 to looking like a brown ale. I've used two different autosiphons, and two different sets of tubing. The wand has remained the same but I've inspected it and see no changes. I don't see huge pockets of air inside the siphon. I'm at a total loss here. I use the normal oxygen absorbing caps I've always used and they seem to cap tightly because I get plenty of carbonation. I use to clean with Oxiclean (and rinse out very thoroughly) and sanitize with StarSan, but the last batch I used PBW & StarSan. Bottles are stored between 65-70 to condition.

    Really not interested in changing to a kegging setup, though that may be the best solution! I'm just looking for ANY thoughts, no matter how crazy they may be. Maybe someone will see this and happen to know someone who experienced something similar. It's just weird b/c before 4 batches ago, it never happened to me! Many thanks to anyone who has even read this!

    My latest batch, an IPA made with 95% Golden Promise, 5% Wheat, 5% Carapils looked like this at bottling:
    [​IMG]

    2 weeks later I open a bottle and looked like this, and tasted stale (and no it's not just "green" beer):
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Mag00n

    Mag00n Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2008 New York

    Ive never heard of oxidation darkening beer, it also seems kind of of unlikely to me that your beer would show heavy signs of oxidation after just 2 weeks, especially since you seem to be careful with it. Do you get a cardboard taste at all?
     
  3. premierpro

    premierpro Savant (1,060) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    The only thing I can think of would be to make sure that when your filling your bottle let your beer foam to the top of your bottle. I have never had my beer get oxidized. (Knocks on wood!) Are you sure that is the cause and not infection. The color change has me stumped. I do like the Stone beer ! Good luck.
     
  4. IPeteA91

    IPeteA91 Initiate (0) Nov 10, 2012 Texas

    I would recommend changing the siphoning proceedure. If you have an airtight cap with two outlets on your carboy you can start the gravity siphon with a little pressure from a 5lb CO2 tank. Also I would suggest purging the bottles with CO2 before filling.
     
    inchrisin likes this.
  5. MiScusi

    MiScusi Pooh-Bah (1,803) Feb 12, 2005 California
    Pooh-Bah

    Oxidation makes a significant impact on a beer's color (I've seen it over the years many times in commercial beer, but this has also been substantiated by John Palmer). In terms of its flavor, I don't get cardboard. In old IPA's and other similar ales I get more of a weird sweetness, dullness... It's the same flavor I've had from many beers that are farrrr past their bottled on date. I always learned that the cardboardy oxidation flavor only really occurs in very light beers, mostly lagers. In beers of more substance you get more of a caramelly strange sweetness. But I totally agree, how in the world is this happening after just 2-3 weeks when before that it looks great. I mean, I suppose there's a chance this is something else, but this fits with what I've observed in old beer over the last decade.


    I definitely don't let it foam to the top, but I never have. Usually it's not foaming, except for the first bottle since the autosiphon kicks up so many bubbles in the first bottle. I can't see infection, though I'm not an expert. I've had infected beer and I'm not getting any sort of sharp, overly dry/cidery, or sour flavors.

    color and flavor change in oxidation---- http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=76157
     
  6. Soneast

    Soneast Pooh-Bah (1,751) May 9, 2008 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Why aren't you using the spigot on your bottling bucket to fill the bottles? I don't know why that would make a difference, but stood out to me. Are you getting a lot of bubbles in the line when using your autosiphon?

    [​IMG]
     
  7. MCBanjoMike

    MCBanjoMike Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2014 Canada (QC)

    Oh man, I think you've really nailed the problem I had with a recent batch I made. I was looking for that cardboard flavor and couldn't find it, but "a weird sweetness, dullness" sounds a lot like the problem I have with it. Thanks for posting this, I feel a little less crazy now.
     
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  8. MiScusi

    MiScusi Pooh-Bah (1,803) Feb 12, 2005 California
    Pooh-Bah

    I'd like to make a bottling bucket like that, but I've always just had a separate bucket w/o valve in which I autosiphen a second time out of time into bottles. It's always worked fine, but the bucket w/ spigot would definitely be easier and better.
     
  9. MiScusi

    MiScusi Pooh-Bah (1,803) Feb 12, 2005 California
    Pooh-Bah

    Ok so maybe more than just oxidation going on here.... as I'm opening bottles now I'm getting a big buttery diacetyl aroma which was NOT present 2 weeks ago at bottling. I drank a whole glass of the beer at bottling, and it was amazing. Now it's just a diacetyl bomb, and I'm not even very sensitive to that off-flavor. I'm reading that oxygen introduced at bottling can cause diacetyl precursors to form diacetyl, which would fit my thoughts of bad oxidation here.... Still not thinking infection b/c not getting the dry/cidery/or sour note
     
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Since you did not perceive diacetyl when bottling but you are now, another possibility is a pediococcus infection:

    “A bacteria called pediococcus can also form high levels of diacetyl in beer.”

    http://www.professorbeer.com/articles/diacetyl.html

    FWIW, everything you have detailed concerning your bottling process does not lead me to believe that you are oxidizing your beer during bottling.

    Cheers!
     
    CDennyRun, premierpro and Mag00n like this.
  11. Naugled

    Naugled Pooh-Bah (1,944) Sep 25, 2007 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    I would put my money on diacetyl, early on it can have a sweet carmelly, butterscotch flavor which intensifies with time. You can do a forced diacetyl test before bottling, it's a fairly simple test to perform to check for the precursors. I've struggled with diacetyl in the past. Give it a google, you'll find some threads and instructions.

    I have gotten diacetyl (from the best I can conclude) from pedd (as Jack points out), but that usually appears 3+ months in for me. Pedds a slow moving beast (temperature dependent). Since it's happening so quickly, my guess would be it's from O2 at bottling.

    Is the beer well carbonated after two weeks? One thing I would try would be to add new yeast with the priming sugar to see if that helps.

    One more question: are you dry hopping? Dry hopping introduces oxygen into the beer.
     
    warchez likes this.
  12. MiScusi

    MiScusi Pooh-Bah (1,803) Feb 12, 2005 California
    Pooh-Bah

    Yes beer is well carbonated after 2 weeks.

    I have dry hopped all the batches that have gone bad. This latest one I dry hopped while there was still some airlock activity to try and push out any added O2. Made a red ale that wasn't dry hopped and it turned out fine. That was my previous batch. But 2 batches before that had this same problem (sans the diacetyl. They only had the very quick staling (2-3 weeks)). So i'm leaning away from equipment infection.
     
  13. Naugled

    Naugled Pooh-Bah (1,944) Sep 25, 2007 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    I think we're on to something. How do you store your hops? Were these fresh unopened packages? If so were they from a lhbs and hand packaged? or vac sealed?
     
  14. MiScusi

    MiScusi Pooh-Bah (1,803) Feb 12, 2005 California
    Pooh-Bah

    Some of the hops were unopened, some were opened from previous use, all kept in freezer and wrapped tightly (though undoubtedly there would be some oxygen introduced to them). The shop I go to sells them in those foil packs you have to cut open... not vac sealed but i imagine purged w/ inert gas, considering it's a fairly big local brewery/homebrew shop (Mother Earth Brew Co).

    I do see the trend, and think it's easy to label the dry hops as the culprit, but really? A little oxygen in the dry hops causing a complete staling of the beer in 2-3 weeks after bottling (3-4 weeks after introduction of those dry hops) along with causing possible diacetyl conversion? It just seems like there's gotta be a bigger source, or issue, like a problem with the siphon process or something. Right before all this started happening I had a Saison score 38 in the LA homebrew comp. Was very proud of myself. And just before that a nice hoppy (dry hopped) pale ale that I very much enjoyed (this spans back to last summer though).

    Regarding the diacetyl... I really don't think Pediococcus could cause that in 2 weeks at 65-70F conditioning
     
  15. Naugled

    Naugled Pooh-Bah (1,944) Sep 25, 2007 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    Breweries measure O2 in finished beer in ppb (parts per billion), a very small amount can cause problems. I've personally moved away from DH'ing to mostly whirlpooling to avoid the O2 introduced from the DH's.

    It only takes a bit of O2 to complete the diacetyl reaction as well. And if there's not enough yeast activity to clean it up, it will remain there.

    If you have a vac food sealer I'd start using that, or buy smaller amounts of hops that come in a vac sealed bag so they are always fresh.

    I stay away from any hops that are repackaged by lhb shops. They are not typically equipped to do it properly.
     
    Reneejane likes this.
  16. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    A coupkle things that stand out to me...
    1. My ipas taste like soapy crap when I bottle.
    2. They don't hit their stride for at least 6 weeks in the bottle. Sometimes more.
    3. Use a 2 spigot cap and racking cane on your carboy and start the siphon with c02.
     
    GetMeAnIPA likes this.
  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I am uncertain about diacetyl being the overall problem upon considering the color change aspect. The only thing that would cause the color change to my knowledge would be oxidation. Is there something else that would cause a color change in a short timeframe (2-3 weeks)?

    Why the OP is experiencing oxidation know vs. previously is vexing. Is there a chance that there is a mechanical failure in the auto-siphon? I personally do not use an auto-siphon so I have no experience here.

    Cheers!
     
  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    My IPAs reach their peak of flavor around 4-5 weeks after bottling. I do not personally view this as a problem.

    I personally would not describe my IPAs as "soapy crap" at bottling but they certainly are not the same as the beer after 4-5 weeks of bottle conditioning.

    Cheers!
     
  19. MiScusi

    MiScusi Pooh-Bah (1,803) Feb 12, 2005 California
    Pooh-Bah

    Autosiphon is what I was thinking at first, but this last batch I used both different siphon and tubing. Neither were brand new but they weren't the ones involved in the previous two beers that this happened to either. Neither seemed to be working any differently than they always have.
     
  20. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Well I am stumped at the moment. Perhaps some other ideas will come to me with time?

    Cheers!
     
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