Did Surly's Todd the Axe Man Change?

Mr. Manley seems to be a good dude who comes here & provides a lot of good, solid info.

But there's a long, strange history of Surly denying very obvious changes in recipes. In my memory it started with '07 Darkness (a divinely hoppy master-class in stout brewing) morphing to '08 Darkness (a sloppy, sugary, under attenuated mess of a stout). At the time & for years afterwards, everyone associated with Surly strenuously denied the recipe had changed, despite the clear differences in the two years (& many years of Darkness thereafter). Ever see Jennifer Gray pre- and post-surgery?

Not to say Axe Man has or hasn't changed. I do think it's a touch less clear than it once was, but that could be attributed to things other than a wholesale or subtle change in recipe.

 

Here's a thought,
Perhaps Axe Man hasn't changed, but rather people are noticing the test of time. The standard for an IPA changes over time. Amidst the modern "Haze Craze" our palates change. While Axe Man may have been revolutionary in it's time, newer breweries follow suit and can cause these, once novel IPAs to dissolve into the library of modern craft beer. It doesn't change the historical semblance, but maybe craft beer has evolved now to make this beer blend into the norm and that's where people are finding the disappointment.

 

Is it time for Hazy Axe Man?

 

In which way(s) were they different?

Cheers!

P.S. I just posted my discussion of my first can of Todd the Axe Man in today's New Beer Sunday thread:

https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/new-beer-sunday-week-772.628763/#post-6724358

 

Thanks Jack! I'm curious, as I've never gotten onion notes from Todd, what was the canned date for the brew you reviewed?

 

It was canned on 10/31/19.

It seems like lots of BAs have differing opinions on how long hoppy beers (e.g., IPAs) are 'good' for. FWIW I am of the opinion that an IPA that is less than 38 days old is still 'fresh' IMO.

Cheers!

 

Jack, in general I agree. But for my palate and preferences there's certainly a handful of beers I won't even consider buying with more than 30 days on them (as I like to leave myself 1-2 weeks to actually drink them). Todd is on my personal 'list', some others include PtE, Jai Alai, Hexegenia. While I'm happy to grab Furious with more than 30 days on it, I can't say the same for Todd. TETO, but I was curious as I've never had onion notes even with Todd at 45 days+. All that though was in the Midwest with limited (or lesser) shipment and storage variables than say their stuff I've found in CA or OR. Cheers

 

I just gotta ask: why do you think that onion is an age related issue? Specifically why would you think a beer would be non-oniony at 20 days in the bottle.can but be oniony at 45+ days?

Cheers!

 

I normally wouldn't given the hop profile. Yours is the first I've noticed with that note for this beer. So just trying to elucidate what variables might be leading to such a result.

What's your hypothesis for the onion origin given the beer/hop profile?

 

My perspective here is that the onion I picked up in my can of Todd the Axe Man IPA is due to the specific batch of Mosaic hops used to brew this batch of beer (canned 10/31/19).

I have homebrewed a number of beers that featured Mosaic hops and for those beers I have never picked up onion in those beers. I did not pick up onion in those beers at 20 days post bottling and I did not pick up onion at 90 days post bottling.

Having related the above I have on more than one occasion picked up onion in commercially brewed beers that feature Mosaic hops. On a related note below is something I posted in a past thread discussing Founders Mosaic Promise:

“I have had Founders Mosaic Promise a few times and that beer has been variable. In one batch I mostly picked up fruity flavors but in another batch that beer was super dank.”

As I understand it the chemical compound that contributes an onion-like flavor is dimethyl trisulphide.

It is my guess that for the batch of Todd the Axe Man that I purchased the specific batch of Mosiac hops that Surly used contributed some dimethyl trisulphide to the beer during the dry hopping process.

Perhaps Bill (@BillManley) can provide his perspective on this topic?

Cheers!

P.S. Another very important consideration is that each individual has a differing palate threshold for differing chemical compounds. The food industry standard for the flavor threshold for dimethyl trisulphide is 40 ng / l. Perhaps my palate is ‘extra’ sensitive to this particular chemical compound?

 

Definitely! I personally actually don't mind the note in certain beers with Summit hops, but my guess is I'm not particularly sensitive to it. Where others, despise the note and Summit hops as a result. Cheers

 

I pick it up a lot as well in some really hoppy beers with Mosaic and sometimes Citra at least, probably Vic Secret and Ekuanot too. I usually describe it as super dank resinous earthy herbal sometimes spicy, but at times it verges into the definitive oniony, sometimes garlicy or even cilantro taste for my palate. I’ve grown a bit used to it by now. It’s all a part of hoppy beers at this point, the combo of earthy dank piney flavors and citrusy or tropical and other fruit flavors.

In my review of Axe Man I said it smells earthy herbal and dank, resinous amongst other notes, and the taste had amongst other flavors notes of dank resinous earthy herbal bitter piney woodsy spice. I didn’t mention onion specifically so it wasn’t that prominent to me. I originally reviewed it in the past but looked back at my review during my recent try of it and that is the result. Maybe the batch you got was a bit more oniony.

 

Another possibility is that the compounds that come off as earthy/dank for your palate registers as onion-like for my palate.

We all have our own unique palates.

Cheers!

 

I never had the "original" Axeman that is being referred to. I've only had what dropped in NC a month or two(which was 4-5 weeks old, I think), and I thought it was one of the best IPAs I've had. It did take me 2-3 weeks to get through the 4-pack though, and by the time I drank the last one, there was a notceable decline, so I guess age had become a factor.

This thread reminds me of the first batch of Green Flash-brewed Nelson (Alpine). I had never had the original that was so highly regarded, but the first batch from Green Flash that came to NC was super good, up there with the best I had ever had. I then found it on tap a couple of years later and it was a totally different beer (not in a good way). I wondered if the bartender had given me the wrong beer.