Do Modern German Breweries Use Decoction?

One of my favorite breweries is Old Mecklenberg. They still do it, and their beer is fantastic.

http://www.oldemeckbrew.com/Beer/beer.php?Copper-8

My apologies. You said German brewers and Old Meck is American.

 

Though some on here will dispute the fact that there is a distinct difference between that tale-tell rich, bready German maltiness and U.S. "craft" interpretations of German styles, most people who have had German beers from the source know exactly what you're talking about.

And, yes, many Bavarian breweries still use decoction mashing -- and nearly all use, at the very least, fairly complex step-infusion mashing. This certainly plays a role in obtaining that character, but it's not the only factor. German brewers rarely use roasted/chocolate malts, except in rare cases like Schwarzbiers. Instead they use a lot of a low-color malt instead of a little of a high-color malt, which also enhances the maltiness. The use of things like spunding devices on the fermentation tanks promotes production of SO2, which lends itself to that fresh bready character, especially in the aroma. Finally, they don't hop the shit out of their beers, so that maltiness more easily shines through.

Really there are lots and lots of such small factors that contribute to that unmistakable malt character -- and IMO far too many U.S. "craft" brewers of German styles either don't know about, or simply ignore, these crucial steps in their versions (well, except for places like New Glarus and Olde Mecklenburg).

 

I agree with everything you said here. Though I would put decoration at the bottom of that list of factors in the difference in quality. I would also add that any German brewer worth the title would properly lager their fest bier while most American brewerys will either cut the layering short or skip it altogether. I don't think you could find many US brewers who are willing to lager longer than two weeks before packaging and an Oktoberfest needs more like six weeks (at minimum) to really come together. I think this is likely one of the biggest factors in the difference the op has seen.

 

I am researching decoction mashing for Altbiers and in my reading was warned that an undesired effect of step mashing modern malts that don't require it is a probable decrease in the body of the resultant beer.

Do German brewers you reference use modern barley? Or do they insist on using herloom varieties that still require a step mash to fully convert? Is the decoction simply to get the maillard reaction? Or?

 

First, I'd be interested in the source you used about decoctions, especially the part about step-mashing. From what I understand, nearly all German brewers employ step-mashing -- and I assume a lot of them use the modern barley you speak of (such as Weyermann).

Second, yes, some German brewers renowned for still using decoction mashing -- such as Augustiner and Heller-Trum -- have their own maltings, and these may benefit especially from decoction mashing. That said, decoction is being abandoned widely due to things like the use of modern barley and the added expense.

 

Not sure I could find it but I do remember reading that step mashing modern barley will result in shorter proteins than are necessary, and I believe they said this can lead to less body in a beer. It didn't speak specifically about decoction, just the feature of an "unneeded" protein rest.

Sounds like if German brewers are using modern barley and producing quality results with it than it is something one needn't worry about. And I won't. My next Alt calls for decoction, guess I will do it like those who invented it. Except for doing my own maltings

 

I understand that many use a Huchkurz decoction or step mash.

Zum Uerige is said to still do a triple decoction, according to Dr. Frank Hebmuller of that Altbier brewery. Rests are at 125, 144, 158, 169 degrees F.

 

I have definitely heard that about the protein rest -- but not about the other steps in a mash schedule. Also, I have heard from many sources that decoction is no longer needed with today's highly modified malt; still, Germans are by and large traditionalists, so many will not abandon these processes until someone can definitively prove that they are more detrimental than beneficial.

Anyway, there's nothing quite like the smell of decoction mashing (IMO it's better than the smell of simply boiling wort...even after hop additions).

 

Good lord, the recipe I got from my hb club's VP is a single decoction. Thankfully. OTOH you can see the old time logic of those rests.

 

For those with some extra time on their hands: the Charlotte Beercast folks did a similar side-by-side tasting, but (being in basketball-crazed NC) turned it into a contest of sorts they called Maerzen Madness. They, too, all remarked about the very obvious differences in malt character between the authentic German versions and their U.S. craft "counterparts." Pretty interesting.

http://charlottebeercast.libsyn.com/episode-11-5-marzen-madness

 

I believe that the long time that the grain has in contact with the mashing liquor during a typical decoction mash also has something to do with it, though the smell is certainly wonderful and unique. For added body, they could always add chit malt (highly undermodified) which is made pretty much for that purpose (though, whether it is commonly used, I could not say).

 

I have heard from a very reliable source (he writes about beer and travels extensively for his research and sources) that Spaten stopped decoction mash on all their beers about 6 years ago. All but Optimator and maybe the Dunkel. Sad, but true.

And there appears to be two sides to dropping the system in bigger breweries; energy conservation and they want us to believe that malts have come so far that they don't need to be decocted to get the flavor we all like -- to which I say, brew 2 batches with the same ingredients -- decoct one, but not the other -- see if there's a difference. Bet there is.

On the other hand, I still drink the Spaten Premium (Helles) and find the bready malt character very good. To me, that's local barley and experienced brewers.

 

As a guess, he uses a lot of Munich malt too.

 

I came to say, for the American breweries, OMB decocts their beers. Or most of them.

 

It was probably in reference to one of these articles written by Narziss

1. "Comments on some taste factors in Beer", Brauwelt, Vol.IV, 1992.
2. "Qualitative and Quantitative aspects of Mashing ", Brauwelt, Vol. III, 1993

 

Decoction was my nickname in high school.

 

Here is an article from Brew Your Own that essentially makes BOTH points! That modern, well-malted grains don't "require" the extra rests, but that the process has other benefits in terms of flavor development and creating body.

http://byo.com/soda-pop/item/1409-starter-guide-to-decoction-mashing

 

Below is something that Kai Troester published on his blog concerning decoction:

“It is traditional in many continental European beer styles, especially in Germany and the Czech Republic. But most breweries in these regions have switched to the more economical directly heated step infusion mashing.”

For those interested in the details of conducting a decoction mash, Kai provides a lot of great information:http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

Cheers!

 

Well I have had two octoberfest beers this year. Sam adams and spaten. the spaten uses decoction and the malt was rich and buttery without diacetyl, smooth and very deep. The sam adams had a sour under taste and the spaten had a toffee like under taste that was nutty. The nose on both were similar but the bodies were very different and so were the tastes. Decoction makes a difference.