"Does American craft brewing have a quality problem?"

Yes to all your questions.

My very soon to be ex-wife worked at Bacchus when I met her, I don't hold it against them. Jay ( have never heard anyone call him Jason) and Mike are the brewers and I will put a link to them where you can follow their experiments. They do traditional pretty well, but their fruit and other adjunct and flavoring addition wilds have yielded some stupid delicious beers. That's Mike to the left, Jay to the right in the pic.

http://www.bacchusnewpaltz.com/brewery

 

Could it be? Yep that’s one of several possibilities that have emerged in this discussion. The question is whether or not its correct and whether is the cause of the problem or a symptom of a more fundamental problem. And that cycles us back to the question of whether a sample is representative and on to the additional queston of how the questions are asked and the answers obtained. It has been clearly demonstrated that how you pose a question can influence the results obtained and also that looking at only part of the data can be misleading.

For example, a few years ago our current PA governor included in his platform the plank of privatizing the Liquor
Control Board for PA. Several people, were fond of pointing out that a Quinnepeac poll (done by folks who know what they are doing and don't asked biased questions), found that an estimated 70% or so of PA residents favored that. However what conveninetly got ignored in the subsequent arguments is that only about 12-15% of the general public thought it was a big enough issue to worth the time and effort of having the legislature spend their time on it. So is having State Liquor Control unpopular, yes. Does the public care enough about the issue to have anything done? Not really, at least not at this time.

So I personally am not willing at this stage to attribute to *all* the startups who shouldn't be starting up the motive that they prefer to hear what their friends and neighbors say over education. As I pointed out in an earlier post, the only folks who were talked to at the nameless festival in a nameless state were not representative of all start ups until demonstrated otherwise.

 

Fair enough. Regardless of the actual numbers, however, there seems to be a fairly large -- and growing -- disconnect between some of the more established, educated brewers and consumers on the one hand and the less established, educated ones on the other. When such a disconnect is at work, it would behoove all involved to look beyond things such as simple preference ("It's good enough for me!") to more educated and constructive criticism and possible ways forward.

Or the BA could simply tell its constituents that there is currently not enough data to go on, and that, while they wish them well, in the meantime the market will sort them out.

 

My sister used to kinda-sorta date one of the bartenders there (I'm talking late 90s, haha), so we started going there a lot because it was a little more affordable for my college ass to go because (as the older brother) I got looked out for a lot there. The $3 pints of Optimator were always a go-to beer for me, but they were always a step ahead in terms of their tap list and the bottles they carried. As we got older, and became the annoying down-staters we cursed while we lived there, I made sure I went into Bacchus everytime we went because I could actually afford to spend most of my night there. Long story-long...it's cool to see they're doing it themselves now. Everytime we take a person who's not familiar with the area (we took about 30-35 people tubing on the Esopus a few Summers ago) they always enjoy the place. Peter Kills Park is one of my favorite places to go in my life. Period. Love that place, miss it immensely.

The beer distro by the Thruway always had a nice selection, too. Jesus, man, I want to drive up there right now. haha

 

This is where I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

I have no trouble believing that 7 or 8 out of 10 new breweries brought mediocre beer that 'needs improvement.' I don't think that's the same as 7 or 8 out of 10 breweries bringing beers riddled with problems that severe. I read "needed improvement" as "your IPA is really unbalanced (or thin)" or "this pilsner has a bit too much DMS" rather than "your IPA is oxidized (or infected)" or "your stout has so much DMS it tastes like cabbage" or "this tastes like a poorly made Mr. Beer kit." So which is it?

 

Next time up mess. me and we can raise a couple together, not only at Bacchus but at Mill House in Po'town, great beer, great food, and Newburgh really stepping up their game too.

 

Some of the Newburgh stuff has made it down to LI and I've enjoyed it. The Peekskill stuff though, grrr, there seems to be some kind of wall out up between Manhattan and the outer boroughs.

Thanks for the offer, I'll definitely take you up on your offer. We have another daughter coming in August though, so I don't know when that'll be. Cheers man. Drink a pint at Bacchus for me. Hopefully Frank is still there. Good bartender, cool dude. He was still there just a year or 2 ago.

 

But there have also been a few references to technically flawed beer in the thread, including Todd's post from the first page:

Plus mentions of not managing yeast correctly or conducting proper fermentations. Granted, there are degrees of flaws, but I would still say that either way it's unacceptable and is proper to address them as such. I couldn't say what degree the industry insiders are experiencing right now, but it's enough to cause them concern. In the past this kind of situation has definitely led to new beers with severe flaws crowding the shelves; everything I listed in that post is from a bottled beer that I experienced during the 90s.

It has also been shown that these issues can affect the industry as a whole, so starting the process of addressing them seems like the best course to take.

As to the title of the thread- does American craft brewing have a quality problem? Probably not right now, but it seems that there is one looming.

 

Certainly, but is 70-80% of new beer technically flawed, or is 10% of new beer technically flawed and 60-70% needs some minor improvement to stand out? Those are problems of different magnitudes and it's not clear he's using the same terms or groups for both. 10% of brewers (those with sloppy practices) can buckle and it will be fine. If 70-80% of new breweries collapse, I could see an argument that we're headed for trouble.

To compare your experience with Gatza's, what percent of your 90s beer had those flaws? What percent of those breweries are still around?

 

I remember trying a lot of mediocre brewpub beer back then, and many of those places have changed ownership or are out of business altogether.

If you're a commercial brewery and you're not practicing (on a regular basis) checks on your water, using a pH meter, using fermentation temperature control, and proper CIP processes, you deserve to go out of business. A majority of flaws come from those areas, unless it's simply a matter of having a recipe that's not true to a given technical style and you're calling it that style.

 

What you are proposing here are really two different responses to the potential problem. I personally think neither of which will work, for different reasons.

First, you don't get people who think they are doing a good job (based on things like their own feedback collection system and their bottom line), to listen to you simply by telling them they should listen to you. Someone who's confused or uncertain may listen to you but someone who thinks they are doing a good job isn't going to "hear and take seriously" what is said. Not because they are willfully choosing not to but simply because it doesn't fit with their preconceptions created by direct experience and the feedback they have been getting. A different strategy is required.

Similarly your second option is one I don't think you really believe and seems made up rather than something that has been seriously proposed in this discussion. Some have said "let the market take care of it" but I've not seen any post (perhaps I missed it) where someone has said, "There aren't enough data, so do nothing." But you are right that sometimes an organizational response to inadequate or badly collected data is to throw up their hands and do nothing. Which I don't really think you are proposing as a way forward for the BA.

It’s a bit like medicine. If your Dr. prescribes only aspirin for your sore throat when you have a case of strep throat, at best you feel more comfortable, however the long range effect can be a worse problem and a more serious illness.

Given the options the BA has tried don't seem to have done much to resolve the things they are concerned about perhaps they should consider other possibilities or things that might be done.

 

Mitch, thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. I recognize that being busy it can be challenging for you to read every post in a thread; I do appreciate that you take time to read the posts that are a direct reply to you.

Permit me to further explore your statement of: “Who am I to comment on what the preferences of a beer consumer should be?” For the moment let’s confine the discussion to the realm of craft brewing. I think it might be helpful to specifically examine the exemplary case of Appalachian Brewing Company (ABC) that was brought up by BA @stakem. ABC has been in business for 17 years. Their original location is Harrisburg, PA but over the past 17 years they opened 5 additional locations. The characterization that BA stakem posted (which I tagged you on previously) is: “Heck, one other establishment has been making terribly flawed beers for 17 years and yet they continue to open up new location after new location.”

How does ABC not only survive but in fact thrive by producing non-quality (i.e., flawed) beer?

The only explanation that I can arrive at is that beer consumers like the flawed beers that ABC is producing and are rewarding ABC with their money; so much so that they have expanded from one location to six locations over a timeframe of 17 years.

I anxiously await reading your thoughts on this matter.

Cheers!

Jack

 

but that isn't anywhere close to the point you made, to which I responded, right?

 

Forgive me for not being Mitch, but I wonder if brewpubs might be distinct from breweries here. I've not had ABC beer, but the "place" reviews for their locations are decent, and I know of a boardgaming group that meets there monthly to game and drink for hours. There definitely seems to be an allure to drinking beer made on site. I think a good bar/restaurant can get by with flawed beer more easily than a packaging brewery can.

 

Don't ever let it happen again.

 

I too see some of the same stuff from the 90s as a consumer. Some of these brewers seem to want to base their success on marketing versus actually having product they are proud of. Another thing that makes suspect sub-par beer is if Brewer A is from let's say Wisconsin & No one from there talks them up, but lo & behold they have market penetration here or a neighboring state. This almost always= bad or out of date beer around here. I wish retailers would pass on them. Caveat emptor...

 

A few responses:

“Brewmaster Matt Brynildson from Firestone Walker suggests otherwise. Unless you feel the folks at Firestone don't know what they're talking about.” Matt and I simply have a difference of opinion. I am of the opinion that all beer styles need to be brewed with attention to detail and utilizing proper brewing process. In my homebrewing I brew high quality Pilsners, high quality Kolsch beers, high quality hoppy beers (e.g., IPAs), and a large number of other high quality beer styles. I practice attention to detail and I utilize proper brewing process when I homebrew.

In my opinion Firestone Walker makes a high quality Pilsner (Pivo Pils), high quality hoppy beers (e.g., Union Jack, Double Jack, etc.) plus a slew of high quality other beer styles.

“Do you feel there's a quality issue with IPAs?” I really do not view IPAs as being different from other beer styles when it comes to the aspect of quality within the context of brewing flaws. A year ago at a tasting of Evil Genius Brewing’s IPA at a local beer store I had the unfortunate experience of drinking an IPA that absolutely reeked of diacetyl. I took a little sip (from a small pour) and handed the beer back to the Evil Genius sales rep (who happened to be the younger brother of one of the owners of Evil Genius). I handed the remainder of the beer sample and provided an education to the young fellow on what diacetyl is and the likely cause of its production at their contracting brewery. So, I really do not view IPAs as being different from other beer styles from a brewing flaws point of view.

As a reminder, I posted in a previous post my best attempt at defining what constitutes a bad brewery:” a bad brewery is a brewery that produces beer that beer consumers do not want to buy.”

So, going back to my above discussion of Evil Genius and their IPA beer: if beer customers are willing to purchase the Evil Eye IPA despite the fact that it reeks of diacetyl then Evil Genius is not a bad brewery.

Cheers!

 

OT to the thread, but DAMN I'm glad somebody said this. "Hops mask the flaws" is one of the biggest canards generally accepted as true without any argument ever, around here and elsewhere in the craft beer community.

 

But ABC is also a production brewery:

· Water Gap Wheat Ale: 24/12oz per case

· Mountain Lager: 24/12oz per case

· Purist Pale Ale: 24/12oz per case

· Hoppy Trails India Pale Ale (I.P.A.): 24/12oz per case

· “Jolly Scot” Scottish Ale: 24/12oz per case

· Trail Blaze Brown Ale: 24/12oz per case

· Broad Street Barley Wine: 24/12oz per case

· Chocolate Avenue Stout: 12/22oz. bottles per case Release Date: January 3, 2014

· Outta Focus Double I.P.A.: 12/22oz. bottles per case Release Date: April 4, 2014

· Aero-Head Maibock: 12/22oz. bottles per case Release Date: May 2, 2014

· Volks Weizenbock: 12/22oz. bottles per case Release Date: July 4, 2014

· Kipona Fest: 12/22oz. bottles per case Release Date: August 1, 2014

· Batch No. 666: 12/22oz. bottles per case Release Date: October 3, 2014

· Grinnin’ Grizzly Spiced Ale: 12/22oz. bottles per case Release Date: November 7, 2014

Somebody is buying (and will be buying) all of these cases of ABC beer.

Cheers!

 

If you are inferring that addition of massive amounts of hops does not obscure technical flaws, I'm fairly certain that your opinion is in the vast minority. Do you also think that adding large amounts of coffee, roasted malts, herbs, spices, etc. do not cover up undesirable characters?