"Does American craft brewing have a quality problem?"

“…people's tastes do change over the course of their lives, so there's that, too.” My taste perception capability has not changed over the past 20 years (the timeframe that I have been homebrewing) so it is not always easy to relate to something like this, but I suppose that is a fair point.

Cheers!

 

I have been following this along since the start and there are many good comments.

To me, it seems the X-factor is the consumer. I'd wager that most drinkers outside our little universe have no clue that a beer is technically flawed. They may simply "not like it" or think "this tastes awful" but probably have no idea why. We're a microcosm here and I think sometimes that is forgotten because we all pretty much talk the same language. The average person, not so much. Even though craft popularity is high, people are still people. They are going to drink what tastes good to them (which I think sums up Jack's point). If they can't find craft options that meet what they want, they'll go back to the simpler world of AAL's. Bitch all you want, but big brewery AAL product is the same day after day, purchase after purchase, everywhere you go and requires no thought or research. It doesn't require any training of the palate or understanding of flavor profiles, brewing techniques or ingredients. It simply is.

A concept we used to kick around here was "creeping degradation". Say you make a change to a product that is "just a little different" and consumers "get used to it". You keep doing that and all of a sudden you realize what you are making in no way, shape, or form resembles the former "gold standard" but you've gotten away with it and trained a whole generation of consumers to accept the theoretically "substandard" product. Nothing really wrong with the product, but it is not what it once was. Then there are production issues leading to technically flawed product - I have them in my industry too. If my sanitation programs follow some kind of slow erosion, then I am just begging for the consumer hot line to light up. Two things at play here - consumer "liking" of the product, and product that is truly technically "bad". Do the consumers tell me a product has a styren odor/flavor indicative of substandard fruit - no. They just say it tasted "bad". The average consumer has no idea what the flaw is that causes the "bad" taste. Either can happen by intent or by accident.

Does poor quality from a handful of breweries cast a halo - I am sure to an extent it does. Guilt by association. Maybe most of us in our community will just not buy from a brewery that has a history of true quality issues and move on to something else or back to familiar waters. Most likely we just move on to another craft offering, but somebody just cutting their teeth might run back to the safe harbor of AAL's or other beverages. Why bother if you run into several craft beers in a row that you don't "like". Whether that "not liking" is driven by a technical flaw or not what's the difference? A lost consumer is a lost consumer. I'm sure I have had technically flawed beers but I am not sure I can always pinpoint "why" and it just falls into the category of beers I won't drink again. I won't turn my back on craft as a whole because of it, but I won't buy from that brewery again in all probability.

I think there is a quality issue of some degree - how big the problem is remains to be seen. What impact it has in the grand scheme of things also remains to be seen. What fascinates me is the attitude that seems to be saying all should survive. Why? A good brewer should be listening to feedback and should be approaching their craft with an attitude of continuous learning and continuous improvement. I guess if the "vote with the wallet" concept isn't playing out, then there is no incentive to do so beyond personal integrity. But why should a brewery putting out consistently flawed beer survive? If they aren't willing to listen, learn, and adapt then lock the door and sell the used equipment to Sam C.

I believe beyond this there may be a lack of standards. Probably not so much for the larger scale brewers (Sierra or BBC and the like) as it is the smaller brewers and brewpubs. I've been on enough tours and visited enough brewpubs to have seen the whole spectrum. I've followed the pictures of various new breweries from Victory, Sierra, etc and have been amazed at the quality of construction and the engineering. Others....ummmm...not so much. As a food industry professional with 35 years of experience, I have seen things that make me shake my head when it comes to good manufacturing/sanitation practices as well as general "food" safety on brewery tours (which is another issue entirely - civilians on the process floor). And yes - I've been "that guy" and asked questions - responses range from a cavalier shrug of the shoulders, to the arrogant how dare you, to wow...tell me more I want to understand. I do understand it is a different industry, but basic engineering and manufacturing principles are the same and product is being sold for public consumption and food security/safety is no joke. Like it or not, product is being sold for human consumption and there should be standards in place. There has to be a certain level of commitment to maintaining standards (including learning about them) and developing good practices inherent in running a commercial operation and sometimes - sometimes - I think that is lacking. Not saying it can't be done (I have seen it done first hand), but I do believe sometimes it simply is not done or there is no understanding that it needs to be done.

It's a complicated problem. Is it a death knell for craft brewing in general - I have my doubts about that simply because there are so many choices available. Is there gonna be a lot of used stainless on the market - I fear that might be true.

 

Larry (@LeRose ), that was a well thought out and composed post. Thank you!

Cheers!

 

Be patient. It will happen and slowly enough that you won't even notice for a while but eventually you'll be able to relate. :-)

 

Well, if the taste change results in me not being able to discern brewing flaws it could be argued that this is a 'benefit'. There will be a crop of new breweries whose beers I can enjoy drinking!?!

Cheers!

 

Fair enough. Based on your posting history I have no doubt you're an experienced homebrewer. I mean no offense by this at all, but I will lean towards the opinion of one of the most well respected craft breweries in the country over an avid homebrewer. And this is the opinion that a pilsner is a difficult style to brew due to its subtle qualities, in comparison to something such as an IPA.

 

The larger breweries have labs and trained sensory panels.

Small operations almost always have minimal to no lab equipment. There may only be one or two that taste the beer and decide if it goes to market. There are times that I say - "Didn't anyone taste this before bottling?" The pressure to sell over dumping a beer is high, some can't afford to dump.

There is also the term I got from Ray Daniels, Cellar Blindness. I try and get honest opinions of my beers from high ranking judges I know in the club before I send the beers to competition.

 

“The opinion that a pilsner is a difficult style to brew due to its subtle qualities, in comparison to something such as an IPA.”

Well, I find it no more difficult to brew my pilsners than to brew my IPAs. It does take longer to brew a pilsner: a longer primary fermentation and lagering takes some time (6-7 weeks for the pilsners that I brew). I personally do not find longer to equate to more difficulty.

There is a need to ferment and lager at cool/cold temperatures but having that capability in hand does not equate to more difficulty for me. There is a need to ferment IPAs at a proper temperature just like there is a need to ferment pilsners at a proper temperature.

Brewing of ales (IPAs) and lagers have more in common than differences: proper sanitation, pitch a sufficient amount of yeast, maintain proper fermentation temperatures, etc.

Maybe a pilsner is more difficult for Matt but I am unsure why. Producing beer using conscientious brewing methods should result in high quality pilsners and high quality IPAs.

The notion that pilsners are more subtle with the inability to hide flaws is a red herring; a competent brewer/brewery should be producing beers without flaws regardless of beer style. There is no reason to think that a pilsner should be more susceptible to brewing flaws.

Cheers!

 

The "flaws" I find in many American-made pilsners is in the malt. And when you amp up the hops in a beer (whether it be an IPL or an IPA) I find much of the nuances of the malt become buried. You need look no further than my local Jack's Abby again, who felt no need to use German malts in their double IPLs, because you can't discern these qualities in such a hoppy offering. Their German pilsner, Sunny Ridge, however does use German malts. And when I had their pilsner, where do you think I felt it needed improvement? From the malt side of things, not the hops. Their double IPLs are fantastic by the way.

Personally I feel mashing technique and water manipulation can be huge factors when trying to dial in a pilsner. In an IPA? Not so much. My first homebrew ever was an IPA. I nailed it. Had no clue what I was doing. Then I tried an English bitter. Loaded with acetaldehyde.

Had I brewed another IPA, or a double IPA perhaps my flaws would have been hidden. The beer evened out with age, and I tried it next to a Coniston Bluebird. No contest, my homebrew wasn't even close. My IPA? I tried it next to a Dogfish Head 60 minute (I brewed a clone), spot on. Of course this story is only n = 1, but so is your Evil Genius IPA anecdote.

 

The FW brewer said that Pilsner is very difficult not simply to brew, but to "perfect." Of course (m)any competent brewers can make a Pilsner without flaws. But it seems to me (and from what I have read, to the BA as well) that if U.S. "craft" brewing wants to consistently compete on the world stage in such myriad styles, they would do well to aim quite a bit higher than just competency, and instead go for what FW speaks of: perfection. Moreover, we, as consumers, should educate ourselves enough to hold them to a higher standard -- lest those operations that have made billions by perfecting the process of "creeping degradation" move in and take over market share.

 

I'm also going to add in his failure in explaining his tasting process. If he's just tasting beers one after the other without cleansing his pallate, the flavors from the previous beers may be distorting the taste of the next one.

 

“The "flaws" I find in many American-made pilsners is in the malt.” I fully recognize that you used quotes when typing the word flaw (“flaws”) but even so that is a poor use of the word. If a brewery like Sierra Nevada choses to use 2-row pale malt to make their pilsner (Summerfest) that is not a flaw or even a “flaw”, that is a brewer’s choice. A good use of the word flaw (or “flaw”) is producing a beer that is “loaded with acetaldehyde”. A brewery (or homebrewer) who produces a beer “loaded with acetaldehyde” did not conduct a proper fermentation.

“Their German pilsner, Sunny Ridge, however does use German malts. And when I had their pilsner, where do you think I felt it needed improvement?” I personally have not tasted the pilsner produced by Jack’s Abby Brewing. It is a bit surprising to me that Jack Hendler, head brewmaster and graduate of Doemens Academy (Germany) is not making a proper Pilsner.

“Personally I feel mashing technique and water manipulation can be huge factors when trying to dial in a pilsner.” I have no idea why you think that a brewery would just haphazardly conduct a mash and water treatment when brewing an IPA. Proper brewing techniques should be followed by all breweries. I am very sure that Firestone Walker pays as much attention to their mashing regime and water treatment when they brew Union Jack as they do when they brew Pivo Pils. I personally follow good brewing techniques when I brew my IPAs as I do my pilsners.

Cheers!

 

By flaws in the "malt" I meant flavors from the malts, not the choice of malt. I only used Jack's Abby's choice of malt to illustrate in a hoppy beer, the choice of malt is a moot point. Summerfest is an excellent pilsner (certainly not an authentic Czech pils in my opinion) but a well-crafted pils nonetheless.

Correct. Who's to say I didn't make this same mistake with my IPA? This mistake would be more easily perceived in a 3.5% English bitter than a 6% American IPA. Although I'll readily admit if Sam from Dogfish was making 60 minute with a large amount of acetaldehyde present, I hope his fans would notice.

I mean no disrespect to Jack and his crew. I felt it was a fine pilsner, just not up to the standards of my favorite German pilsners. I would definitely drink it again, but it was not in my top American-made pilsners such as Troegs Sunshine Pils. Is Sunny Ridge a proper pilsner? Sure. Perfection? No.

I don't. But if following proper technique and using the correct recipe were all it took to make world class beer, then we should all be able to do it. Some things take skill, and years of repetition and education to master. Master chefs aren't born from reading a cook book. Roasting gourmet coffee beans (hell, brewing coffee and pulling espresso shots too) aren't fine tuned with instruction manuals. Brewing world class beer is no different. And some styles require more skill than others.

I'm going to simply agree to disagree at this point, as we've horribly detracted from the original post. Maybe a separate thread on why brewing an IPA is or is not more difficult than brewing a pilsner?

 

“But if following proper technique and using the correct recipe were all it took to make world class beer, then we should all be able to do it.” I don’t know how to properly respond to the word “we” in that sentence but I am fully capable of brewing world class beer by following proper technique and using the correct recipe. I will repeat one more time what I have already posted: “I practice attention to detail and I utilize proper brewing process when I homebrew.”

Cheers!

 

The reason quality has gone down over the past few years is because there are so many new craft breweries popping up all over the country. Many breweries that have those great unique brews are overshadowed by the sheer number of untalented amateur brewers.

 

I base my definition of "world-class" on that of Michael Jackson: "A beer is a world classic [...] either because it has outstanding complexity and distinction or because it is the definitive example of the style." Furthermore, to quote Stan Hieronymus, "Jackson reserved the term 'world classic' for a few special beers, and ones that proved themselves over time. [...] In the course of seven guides, 19 beers earned a top rating every time."

Do you feel that you are not only capable of -- but actually do -- brew world-class beer? And, to bring this back to the OP somewhat, do you also feel that many U.S. "craft" brewers not only can -- but do -- brew world-class beers?

 

Sorry, just saw this. To say that ABC make flawed beer is kinda missing the point. They are simply nailing a style to the best of their ability. In my mind, there are brewers doing it better than them, but to say that the beer is flawed is to say that Walmart has a flawed business plan.

Now, as far as these brewers making patently flawed beers, the first sin that I see the most of is oxidation. That rears its ugly head in many many craft beers and can cause all sorts of problems with not only trans-2-nonenol, but also VDKs. Speaking of which, diacetyl. If you don't think this is a flaw, great, but for many of us, it can make a beer undrinkable as can 2-pentadione.

If your a beer geek that doesn't think these are problems, that's fine. AB as well as many educational studies have proven that they do take away from drinkablity. I just scratched the surface of what I see as the flaws in the marketplace, but to completely answer your question... People want to like the beer that their neighbor makes. It's human nature, and for the most part there's nothing wrong with it. Nothing wrong with it until those people bring their friends who do not currently drink craft beer and ask for "whatever's lightest." And I am not mocking those people and would never. I mock the brewery that hands them a foul excuse for a golden ale brewed with zero finesse and no attention to detail. My problem is that when that happens, guys like Mitch and I just lost a customer because that person just thought to them self, after the first sip, "Bud lite is better than this." And they're right.

So voting with your dollars. With that analogy, Budweiser is the best beer that has EVER been brewed. Will some of the lesser breweries go out of business? Sure. Will all of them? Not sure. But how many of the better breweries will they take with them by posing competition through their own business as well as the business that they drive away from the industry as a whole? There's the problem. The more garbage beer in the marketplace, the less the good brewers can thrive, expand and increase production of good beer.

Sure vote with your dollars. But, and I know this sounds dickish and I'm ok with that, call out bad beer with all your might. If it's truly bad, a brewery deserves to be called out for releasing it. And no, I don't mean the sour beer hater calling out Cantillon or the hop hater calling out Fat Heads, La Cumbre, or maybe Stone. I speak of that beer that made you want to question the brewers sanity, and I have those a lot. I simply won't stand for it. I'll send it back and I'll tell them why I sent it back. The disgusting garbage coming out of some breweries is unfitting of our industry and the sooner these companies go out of business, the sooner all of you will have more good beer to enjoy.

Stepping down from high horse...

 

Is this a rhetorical question?

 

Port brewing / Lost Abbey... Can you chime in?

 

1. This has been going on for years. All of the, as my grandmother would say, shit-ass blonde ales/golden ales I drank along the way come to mind. And there were a lot of them. Apologies to the many drains I've known who had to suffer through it as well. Yet, even though this has been going on for a long time and a lot of breweries have closed, you personally have still thrived. Haven't you.

2. This is exactly what I was referring to in one of my earlier posts. Someone has Saison Dupont or Fantome and then tries Stone Burning Rosids "saison" and says: "Ay! These American brewers are total crap!" I am glad that I am on the same page as one of the better brewers in the country.

Really though, if someone wants to be an ornery turd and write off 2,500+ other breweries because of one, or three, beers they've tried, that is their loss and their life will follow suit in other areas as well I am sure. It's a shame that they can't be more aware or cognizant in life, but there's not much one can do about it.

Craft beer is becoming/has become part of our cultural identity. It isn't going anywhere. Ever. And you can take that to the bank.