"Does American craft brewing have a quality problem?"

I don't have a definition and don't need one since I didn't propose there was a world class Koelsch and ask if someone had brewed one.

Multiple beer enthusiasts also claim that there are world class beers brewed in the US, that doesn't make it so.

Jack did not claim he was brewing a world class Koelsch.

 

Noted. Thanks again since I may get a chance to go back to Koln and don't think I ever had a chance to try those. Also on my last visit I knew a lot lot less about beer than I know now... Nor had I had a chance to try any examples of the style brewed elsewhere.

Edit: And i think you are absolutely right about the variation being batch and/or ingredients form year to year. Seems an endemic problem for smaller brewers. Sometimes the beer is definitely better than others (and I don't think its just "what I had for lunch" that day).

 

I suppose I should be clearer...as I know many consumers who make their purchases based a great deal on who made it and where it came from. And while those beers are drinkable...there are in my opinion other and better beers available....similar styles...and price points. And this has born itself out in my own taste tests. I have often gotten into conversations with people about beer and had them express their feelings about their purchase being based upon the familiarity of its name or where it came from...( a beer well marketed)...but when they are ultimately exposed to better...what do they do? Some give you the "Wow...awesome...what was I thinking"...but still others will say..."thats great beer, but Im gonna stay with mine...local." So perhaps in these cases...to levy good vs bad is not proper here...maybe better to say...Great vs Just OK. But in still others...where people just dont know...and are out in the market looking to pick up a sixer of "the good stuff" to bring to a party...they will grab the flashy label or the name they saw on a billboard driving in to work, drink it...and never know the difference between that beer and the great one that was on the shelf next to it.

 

Even assuming the thesis is correct, than one sip of a flawed beer loses a potential BMC convert forever (and I emphatically do NOT accept it), even so, I submit Jeff and Mitch are losing more customers from poorly made or flawed (don't suggest a d-bomb, or banana-laden, Scottish Ale is not "flawed") beers from hacks who have been in the industry a long time, than the whole new wave combined, simply on the basis of production volumes.I submit that the 2000 smallest production volume breweries, largely consisting of new guys, don't make the combined volume of the next 200-300 smallest production volume breweries, but this group includes a number of breweries that have been hacking it up for years, even decades, w/o all this expression of "don't f*** it up!" we've been getting at the last 2-3 CBCs.

tl;dr: More people who are drinking bad craft beer are drinking bad craft beer from long established breweries, than from the new guys.

Oh and how many BMC drinkers are seeking out new nanos to try as their first exposure to craft beer? My thesis is that a BMC guy or girl trying craft beer for the first time is most likely going to do so via a) his local grocer or package store, where he'll pick up a Sam Adams because he's seen their ad or, b) her local hangout, which because she's a BMC girl probably has two or three craft taps, most likely Sam, SNPA or Stone IPA, and a local regional-sized craft brewer. They're not going to taste their first craft beer at TRVE on Broadway in Denver (selected for this hypothetical because they make EXCELLENT beer on a 3bbl nano set up btw). If they get a bad one, it's most likely the fault of Sam, or the regional brewery, or actually most likely, the proprietor who's running dirty lines.

The people who are drinking bad beer at nanos are the people who seek out nanos, i.e. beer geeks.

tl;dr part deux: COROLLARY: New nanos making bad beer are more likely to drive potential customers away from OTHER new nanos, than from established craft breweries.

 

From Jack on the previous page.

"As a long time homebrewer I personally am my harshest critic. I know when I ‘hit the ball out of the park’ and when I don’t. My recent Kolsch is a home run."

"....but I am fully capable of brewing world class beer by following proper technique and using the correct recipe."

As with many things in life, not everything fits nicely into statistical categories. Many of the best things in life I've had to experience myself to understand what they are, rather than read about trends and statistics. Years of experience, and sifting through anecdotal data have never led me astray. Numbers are great for some things, but not for everything.

Yes, you're right, it's still my opinion. It's not a number. But I trust the opinion of many of those beer advocates in that thread, based on years of interaction and reading posts. I don't claim to be an expert, but I know who I trust. I apologize if that doesn't satisfy your statistical needs, as you're one of those knowledgeable posters in my opinion.

 

I think that there ought to be a lot more focus on the role that distributors play in what has been happening here. For many distributors, there seems to be no threshold for quality. I have done the distribution game on "premium" products domestically and internationally, for years but have been involved in just about every part of the distribution game both domestically and internationally for most of my adult life. There is no way that we would knowing let flawed product out of our warehouses, yet that seems perfectly OK for beer distributors. It seems as if it would take a beer to literally be poisonous before a distributor would decide not to sell it. And that isn't all distributors, but it is the case with enough distributors in enough markets, for this to have become the issue that it is.

 

Thank you for the compliment.

But notice that, as you point out, Jack's claim was that he is capable of brewing a world class beer (which we can only assess by drinking some of his beers in comparison with other beers and that may indeed be an empty, meaningless claim). As you point out, he also said he "hit a home run" with his Koelsch. Hitting a home run is not equal to claiming the Koelsch achieved world class status, so its not really fair for us to munge the two together. That said, I know of at least one person who has drunk Koelsch in Koln and who has sampled Jack's Koelsch and thought it as good as some found in Koln. As good as the two Herrburgess recommends to us? Probably not. As good as some brewed there? Good chance. Example: There are many who would claim that brewing something as good as Reissdorf or Gaffel, which are readily available to us in the US, would be a "home-run" but not world class.

The only statistical need I expressed was to wonder how many world class Koelsch there are in Koln out of the number brewed in Koln. You didn't know but Herrburgess was able to provide a reasonable estimate.

Have a nice day!

 

I dont think a lot of people associate bigger brewery with better.I think little guys offer exactly the opposite. The beauty of a 15,000bbl regionally distributed brewery thats fresh, as opposed to a big national is the reason why this growth in that sector is significant. I see this added capacity by a lot of brewers as not a need to fulfill demand, but a grab to get accounts in an increasingly smaller pool of drinkers. A lot of these breweries are in accelerated growth because they can be for now. It makes you look at someone like Russian River and wonder why they haven't continued down the path of someone like a Firestone or a Stone or even a Dogfish Head. I think its an entirely different business model, and quite frankly, I think the big guys NEED the little ones to continue their torrid growth in order to sustain their business models. The little guys will do just fine. I wonder about the continued growth of the bigger guys though...

 

Here's where I have to disagree with your analysis. The figures I see show growth in brewing capacity, growth in market share for craft beers as a percentage of all beers sold, and growth in the number of people who regularly have one or more craft beers every month. That sounds to me like a pool increasing in size.

 

Well thanks so much for keeping the prose civil and the disagreements just those. Far too often I see forums on here turn into personal attacks and I do my best to stand clear.

To the end of personal preference and voting with your dollar.... Macdonalds is not the best hamburger on earth. Many people vote for that company with their dollars and would argue that taste is subjective. I would argue that in this instance, no. If you think that Macdonalds is the best hamburger, it might be an opinion, but it's wrong. Sure, put in your corrections of "in my personal opinion" where you like. If you think that Taco Bell makes the best Mexican food, you're wrong. If you think Walmart has the best selection of high end fashion, you're wrong. And if you think that anything coming out of... (oh who to pick on...) Gluek Brewery is the best example of a given style, you're wrong. It's you're right to have your own opinion, but having such an opinion is similar to having the opinion that the earth (oh Lord forgive me) is 5,000 years old, that Evolution is incorrect, or that the the earth is not warming (not going to bring up why it might be warming, let's just say that it's happening). It's your right to be wrong and people vote incorrectly with their dollars all the time.

Trans-2-nonenol is universally accepted as a flaw in all but purposefully aged beers. If I taste it in a pilsner or an IPA, it is a flaw, and I don't care if millions of people like it. Diacetyl does not belong in a Helles Lager, it just doesn't, and someone has the right to think such a beer is the greatest beer on earth... but they're wrong.

With many of these examples, I would argue that people are guided not by their olfactory senses but by their emotions. Emotions are a powerful thing. Advertisers know this. What emotions dictate are great beers, and what olfactories dictate are great beers are 2 different things. Very often consumers are guided by a really great brewery story. There are a whole lot of brewers out there with a whole lot of hype around them due to a great story, not great beer.

I know a good amount of customers love that La Cumbre is a family run brewery started by a couple and their dreams of good beer. They like the story of the teacher from the reservation turned brewer. They know my 2 sons and love seeing them and my wife running around the tap room on a regular basis. They love seeing my wife and I enjoying a pint after a long day and chasing our kids around. It's powerful. It doesn't mean our beers are any better. And, at the risk of starting another fire, it certainly does not affect how our beers are judged on a panel at the GABF or WBC.

Cheers.

 

I should restate, brand loyalty I think is what I should be saying..Not so much a smaller pool but people buying your beer more infrequently. I read an interesting article on this somewhere on the web, I will do some searching to dig up.

I agree that the craft pool of drinkers is expanding, tremendously. I think the added capacity is more an attempt to get product to be more readily available for consistent purchase moreso in the future when the growth of craft slows...

 

Russian River has not grown due to the fact that the owners don't want to.

Big does not equal better. Big does not equal bad either. Little can equal good, but often not.

 

I agree with you on every point here, but I think you stepped around a perennial elephant in the room. Should an American lager reek of DMS? Is it a sign of "quality" that it always reeks of DMS to the same extent, or that it reeks of DMS intentionally? If reeking of DMS is "to style," can we not claim the style is a bad one, just as the fast food burger is a bad style of burger?

 

Jeff, since you are a business owner permit me to remind you of an old business saying: the customer is always right.

Since the Brewers Association is an organization representing a number of businesses (craft breweries) I would suggest that it would be wise for BA (and the businesses who are members of BA) to not lose sight of this concept.

I think it is perfectly OK for you to pontificate on aspects like McDonalds, Taco Bell, Walmart, etc. as being wrong.

I recognize that your statement of: “Trans-2-nonenol is universally accepted as a flaw in all but purposefully aged beers. If I taste it in a pilsner or an IPA, it is a flaw, and I don't care if millions of people like it.” is your personal view.

IMHO, it is imprudent of you and the BA to use the word “wrong” when it comes to beer customer’s desires of craft beer. The customer is always right.

Cheers!

Jack

P.S. Let me once again state that I personally agree with statements on flaws like cardboard flavors, diacetyl, etc. but I will repeat that is just my personal opinion on this topic.

 

Are you contrasting that with the fast food examples, or suggesting that it's only his subjective opinion that Taco Bell is bad Mexican food?

 

I suppose my Meta-message was a bit unclear. If a craft brewery business owner wants to use the label “wrong” on non-beer topics then it is just an individual expressing an opinion on esoteric topics.

Since Jeff is a craft brewery owner and a member of BA, I am strongly suggesting that called craft beer customers “wrong” is not a prudent business practice. The basis for this is the saying: the customer is always right.

Both of the above topics are just my personal view (opinion) on these matters.

Cheers!

 

I think your rewording is critical and works very well. If the history of many other consumer products is any guide establishing an early large market share and brand loyalty is regularly a way to ensure ongoing market share. Lots of examples of early market share during the growth phase predicting ongoing market share. And even on sites like this where the "try it all" folks are likely to congregate there are signs that people who've been at it for a few years begin to develop reasonably strong brand loyalty for a significant part of their consumption.

Edit: what the new kids rushing in to premature production have trouble realizing as they watch others successfully compete is that delaying a few weeks (or months) to improve your product can actually put you on a faster growth curve before your market share growth tops out. One doesn't have to have a perfect product but it does have to be good enough that people don't become disillusioned with it.

 

So he's free to express his position on poor-quality "Mexican" food, but shouldn't on poor-quality "craft" beer? The BA exists, in part, to educate consumers. Consumers that know the differences between good and bad craft beer are better-informed consumers. Would you agree that better-informed consumers are more often "right" than less-informed ones?

 

This is a customer service strategy, not a basis for objectivity.

I'd argue that someone who knows better has every right to tell someone who knows less that they are ignorant.

 

“I'd argue that someone who knows better has every right to tell someone who knows less that they are ignorant.”

Or a business can service the need/wants of the customers.

Do you want a business telling you what you want? If your answer is yes to that question then Jeff Erway is a businessman you should conduct business with.

Cheers!