"Does American craft brewing have a quality problem?"

This is an awesome post. Nail on the head.

It's sad, but anytime I hear of a new brewery opening near me, I have a "guilty until proven innocent" mentality. I just assume that they are too inexperienced to make good beer, until I give their beers an honest chance to prove me wrong. I am skeptical of every single one. Sadly, my skepticism is justified most of the time when I finally get to try the beer.

 

I am in sort of agreeance with you - Just my take away from the quote made by the original poster. I get that maybe they are talking about all the new breweries that are opening. And of course some, but not all, are just making average beer. These specific breweries are trying to make different beers and grow their lineup, instead of creating a core of great beers first.

 

Feel like this thread went down some crazy rabbit trails, driven by the idea that craft beer's biggest threat is poorly made craft beer. I just can't buy that argument. If a local nano produces bad beer, I'll drink elsewhere. If my whole city produces bad beer, I'll buy shelf stuff I know is good. The breweries in my city close, others open, and hopefully they begin creating better beer.

Are there contravening variables like consumer loyalty to their friends/local watering holes (even if their beer is flawed)? Sure. But I still don't think that's an industry problem. It's a "Not everyone is a BA" problem. Not everyone has the palate for, nor the concern for, discerning whether a beer may have technical flaws. Some folks care more about buying local than whether the particular product is world-class or not. They'll tell you that sitting on the patio of their favorite joint, when the sun is setting, their friends are laughing, and the beer is cold, is alll they need. Again, I fail to see how this is an industry problem, other than that it might be siphoning off consumers from the hardcore, technically superior breweries.

But those folks will always have consumers too. They're us. What maybe they're afraid of is the transferrability of their product -- that someone else is showing up with an inferior product and getting more attention/followers/$$$. I kind of get that, but maybe you just have to accept that your business model -- brewing technically brilliant beer -- may/may not make your business succeed. That someone else with a better story (as Jeff discussed) or shinier packaging or whatever might get more business than you. Is it infuriating? Sure, if you're the "better" brewery. But is it an industry threat? Not in my opinion.

So, should the BA not care about quality brews? Of course not! By all means push forward with education campaigns, with resources for new brewers, with honest advice about the perils and pitfalls of entering the brewing industry. But of all the things to be scared s--tless by, I'm surprised it's running into some flawed beers at a festival.

 

"It's a "Not everyone is a BA" problem. Not everyone has the palate for, nor the concern for, discerning whether a beer may have technical flaws." Amen to that!

Cheers to breadwinner!

 

I'd like this about 50x if I could, this is the point I've been trying to make throughout this thread.

 

Eeesh...what have we stepped into...allow an analogy

Hyundai Elantra...Porsche Carrera GT...both are cars... can we agree to this?

both appeal to two completely different market segments with individuals concepts and notions about what a car is for, how they should drive and handle etc...

both customers expect the cars to be free of technical flaws...they expect the cars to start for example, the wheels to stay on, the brakes to work etc.... (objective) FYI...I think jackhorzempa wants the wheels to stay on all beers whether they are Elantras or Carreras...

both customers expect the cars to perform in the manner they believe it should (subjective)

the car industry makes both Elantras and Carreras because there is a market for both...

Technically flawed cars such as Gremlins and Yugos and Porsche 924's and 916's (except for the six cylinder) are bad for the car business and car hobby

I will seek shelter now

 

Good luck with that, Joe!

Cheers!

 

But the BA doesn't represent both macros and "craft" beers. For better or worse, "craft" brewing has chosen to define itself in large part based not on what it is, but on what it is *not* (i.e. low-quality beer like BMC). If "craft" beer increasingly begins to comprise low-quality beers and brewers, then the very identity and the myriad claims about why "craft" beer is better beer, have no real basis in reality -- and the increasing market share the future of these breweries and the industry that represents them are basing their existence on begins to disappear as well.

(Now, IMO, the fault lies as much on the side of the "craft" brewing industry representatives for choosing to define themselves in terms of what they are not, as it does on the mediocre brewers that in increasing numbers are joining the movement. Matter of fact, I have been saying as much for years. What I have found is that not many people want to hear it.)

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe anyone has said it's the biggest threat, and I wouldn't agree with them if they did. I'm not even convinced it's a threat rather than an irritant or peeve.

This is all anyone has proposed. No one thinks brewers of flawed beer should be hunted down like dogs or muscled out by the beer mafia. We think they should be advised about the flaws in the beer and we hope they would take steps to correct them. The debate as it exists isn't "education vs. some alternative," it's "bad beers are sold vs. if it sells, then it's good by definition."

 

This is not essentially true...it is a common belief amongst craft beer fans... here is a definition of what is a craft brewer according to the Craft Brewers Association:

An American craft brewer is small, independent and traditional.
Small: Annual production of 6 million barrels of beer or less (approximately 3 percent of U.S. annual sales). Beer production is attributed to the rules of alternating proprietorships.
Independent: Less than 25 percent of the craft brewery is owned or controlled (or equivalent economic interest) by a beverage alcohol industry member that is not itself a craft brewer.
Traditional: A brewer that has a majority of its total beverage alcohol volume in beers whose flavor derives from traditional or innovative brewing ingredients and their fermentation. Flavored malt beverages (FMBs) are not considered beers.

http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/business-tools/craft-brewing-statistics/craft-brewer-defined

The term "crafty" is now being employed to describe beers that exceed the production limits for a craft brewer as defined above...such as Yuengling...Blue Moon I believe also falls into the realm of "crafty"

Please note quality is not mentioned and cannot be mentioned...quality for all intents and purposes is a subjective term...that could spawn a ton of opinion generated arguments that could be based on an ones perception of majority agreement, personal beliefs, or personal experience...sticking with the car example...there are some people who believe the Elantra is quality built car...other may disagree...still others may pull out statistics from articles that could misrepresent the findings, states them in a way that makes them easy to misunderstand, etc....in other words coming to a definition of quality is easy (in fact smarter word guys have done so) agreeing what is quality is not...

Humbly, I posit this...if anyone is offended I apologize...As craft beer lovers we believe that craft beer is of a better quality than BMC...I personally agree as I am sure you would as well...many of my customers however would argue with you...

"IPA's taste like soap." "To me Budweiser is just the perfect beer." "What kind of f#g uses the words hint of...or nose of...in describing beer...It's BEER for Christ sake!" "My buddy is really into them but I can't stand them." "Busch is like mother's milk to me"

eesh and the litany goes on and on...for as much as I disagree with these perspectives as I am sure you would...get ready for this...They are right...are they being objective?....nope...openminded?...nope...Do I want to force Pliny down their throats until their palates evolve? Nope... Do I want to force Pliny down my own throat until their palates evolve ...yes

Do I even have to go outside the BA community for this sort of perspective...look at how many BA'ers disagree with your take on certain beers. Ever drink a beer...loved it.... looked up the rating here and discovered that it received an 80?

So once the quality arguments are removed as subjective...lets focus on what can be employed by ALL brewers which is eliminating technical flaws. These are measurable, these are quantified,...for better or worse Budweiser executes a lot of beer flawlessly and consistently...bad beer...maybe...but bad beer well executed

The mantra off all brewers... "technically perfect execution, using ingredients that are cost effective, to create a beer my customers keep buying at the price they are willing to pay..."

Back into my shelter now

 

No reason. I agree with most everything you have said here.

I have also all but stopped buying U.S. "craft" beer for these very same reasons: "craft" beer does not equal better beer. I've been burned too many times by beer that was, in my personal opinion, of questionable to obviously low quality -- and frequently at a much higher price.

I have talked to many of my friends who are less into beer than I am, and after some brief experimentation with the new offerings popping up, they have arrived at the same conclusions.

If I were a "craft" brewer with my life savings, business plan, and future of my family riding on anticipated industry growth, I'd be very worried. And I'd want the BA advocating and helping educate for me. But hey, that's just me....

 

You needn't worry...if your beer is flawlessly executed...and people will pay for it...a crappy brewery regardless of size won't impact your business...the whole growth of craft beer is a testament to that

 

Fun fact: if you sort your rated beers by score, chrome determines that the page is written in German and offers to translate it for you.

 

Sorry, perhaps my word choice was too all-encompassing. I was just trying to convey that, when you use phrases like "Don't f*** this up", "scared s--tless", etc., it implies you're fairly concerned about the issue.

The debate, as you noted, has partly come to be about "if it sells, it's good by definition", which is the microeconomic argument that has dominated the last couple pages of this threat. But, IMO, the real debate comes back to -- what is the impact of flawed craft beer on the market? The BA seemed to be saying, "We're pretty concerned about its potential impact on the market." My personal feeling is, though a problem worth addressing, it's not the sort of problem that imperils the industry.

Gatza said, "...the potential is there for things to start to degrade on the quality side, and we wouldn’t want that to color the willingness of the beer drinker to try new brands. If a beer drinker has a bad experience, they are just going to go back to companies they know and trust.”

My comments above were just meant to show my half-agreement with Gatza. I agree it may be an issue. I agree it's worth addressing. I don't think the BA was trying to say we should hunt down the bad brewers or muscle them out. But I just don't think it warrants too much hand-wringing. I don't buy the idea that beer drinkers will stop trying new brands, or will turn back to BMC, just because they hit a couple bad breweries. All they'll do, IMO, is stop going to those breweries.

At the end of the day, we all want good beer. And we'll all (at least us BAs) avoid bad beer. I think those truths will allow the industry to continue to prosper, generally-speaking.

 

Yep. I spent the better part of the 90s drinking beer in an area with (at the time) 380 breweries within a hour's radius of the town where I was studying. Good beer was literally almost impossible to avoid.

Wish I could say the same for where I live and drink now.... Instead I pretty much stick to Spaten products (Helles, Oktoberfest, Hefeweizen, Bock). While I'd consider these 2nd-tier in Germany (and they suffer from freshness and other issues), they are IMO of a higher quality than 99% of the U.S. "craft" versions of those styles I can purchase -- at around half the price.

I do still pick up some SNPA, Two Hearted, and anything Olde Meck, though.

 

@breadwinner posted: “I don't buy the idea that beer drinkers will stop trying new brands, or will turn back to BMC, just because they hit a couple bad breweries. All they'll do, IMO, is stop going to those breweries.”

I posted previously: in a reply to a comment from Jeff Erway:

“I mock the brewery that hands them a foul excuse for a golden ale brewed with zero finesse and no attention to detail. My problem is that when that happens, guys like Mitch and I just lost a customer because that person just thought to them self, after the first sip, "Bud lite is better than this." And they're right.” Perhaps this is the crux of why the Brewers Association (Paul), Mitch and you find craft breweries that produce beers that have technical flaws to be a problem? I must confess that I have difficulty with this argument. A beer customer should be capable of having the ability to think something like: Brewer A does not produce a product (beer) to my liking I should try Brewery B (e.g., Stone, La Cumbre, Sierra Nevada, etc.) beers instead. Consumers make product choices all of the time whether it would be brands of bread, brands of hamburgers, you name it. To think that a consumer has the inability to consider the various choices to them and make a decision that is right for them is senseless. The whole free market economy that we have in the US is predicated on consumers having wants/needs and companies producing goods to fulfill those needs. To think that the only option for a beer customer who experiences a craft brewed beer that is not to their liking is Bud Light is a bit insular.

Great minds think alike!

Cheers to the great mind of breadwinner!

 

Thank you for the clarification

 

We'll said

 

Add some fancy spoilers, paint jobs, blacked out windows, sunroofs, blasting stereos, shiny chrome rims, (other obnoxious, adolescent, look-at-me-gimmickry of your choice) to the U.S. cars and you're getting closer.