Dry hop question

Don't try to confuse us with facts!

 

But you say it like it makes a difference. 1,837 years of collective experience in this and other brewing forums says it doesn't.

There are an lot of things in life that seem to make sense, but are, in fact, irrelevant. We call those things counter-intuitive.

Again, you say it like it makes a difference.

It's almost as if you've never brewed a beer in your life or, if you have, you've never ventured outside the lines.

 

Yeah, I don't think that's what the authors were talking about...they were, I think ,talking about liquid slurries and of course dehydration is not a good thing if it happens in your fermenter or in other culture media (as opposed to intentionally dehydrated commercially for packaging).

The book, Yeast, barely mentions dry yeast from what I remember...one of the few things I didn't like about the book.

 

That could be, thanks. I had just seen that part while researching so that's why I was cautious with my presentation.

No the book doesn't cover dry yeast that much. My guess is that once it's hydrated, it's pretty much just yeast. But the book is very clear about how to approach using it and the negatives if short cuts are taken.

 

Why shouldn’t you pitch dry yeast? It's called osmosis. Wort has a high concentration of sugars and the dry cells have a hard time taking in the water. Also the wort will be under the optimal temperature range. So what happens is the yeast die. “Skipping hydration kills about half the cells pitched” (1). They are killed because there cell walls are damaged to the point where they rupture spilling their guts into the beer “Besides only having half as much yeast needed, the dead cells immediately begin to break down and affect the beer flavor” (1) . That statement is what tells me that while GreenKrusty’s observation (dead yeast as food) has merit, there are extenuating factors that trumps it. Yes, there are viable cells left. Cells that have weak cell walls. Healthy cells walls are important to regulating what passes in and out of the cell. Low viability can cause “Slow/stuck /incomplete fermentations””Declining/low viability” “Sulfur””autolysis” (2). A study made also suggested that dry yeast rehydrated in wort can cause a high degree of esters, acetaldehyde and “hot” alcohol character. (3)


(1)p.146 “Yeast, The practical guide to fermenting beer”
(2) p.279,281,273 “Yeast, The practical guide to fermenting beer”
(3) http://seanterrill.com/2011/07/29/dry-yeast-viability-take-two/

in general
http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/3301.html#3301-4

You know I really don’t think that I or anyone here deserves that. But with that statement I think that I’m entitled to take some liberties in my response.

Actually I find you statement a bit ironic.I do a lot of research and I’ve made a lot of changes to have I brew and ferment. Mostly with the advice from the yeast book I’ve made changes in my pitching rate, how I oxygenate, fermentation temperatures, etc. I think that fermentation is the key to making good beer and all that I've been trying to do is share what I've found.

I’ve recently made three beers ranging in 10-12% ABV that sat in the primary for only two weeks. I’m not going to take the time to look for your quote, but you have stated that yeast must be in contact with the beer for three weeks because there is a lot of cleaning up to do. To digress I’ve shared those beers, when young with many club members and they found no off flavors from fermentation.

I’ll let the group review our posts and they can draw their own conclusions.

And with that, take care everyone and at least for now - goodbye.

 

Yeast nutrient that contains dead yeast is actually has what is called yeast hulls. It is the cell walls/membranes, the yeast cells have already ruptured, and you are adding the material in the cell walls that the yeast use to build more cell walls.

 

On the off chance that you're still lurking, I'll respond.

I have no doubt you've done a fair amount of reading on this subject, and the fact that you're able to cite credible sources tells me that you've taken much of it to heart. The problem, from a conversational perspective, is that all you're doing is quoting from these sources. It's all textobook stuff. It's all theory. Nothing inaccurate, but dry, boring stuff that we've all heard and debated a thousand times before. I see no evidence that you've actually played with any of the parameters or even read of others having done so. The subject of rehydrating dry yeast, for example, has been pretty much beaten to death in this forum. Look it up. Your comments concerning osmosis, a 50% kill rate, and weakened cell walls may be true - I'm not arguing that it's not. But my experience and the experience of many here who have brewing with dry yeast for years says that it's irrelevant. It appears that, even after half the yeast is killed off and the viable cells have had their cell walls thus weakened, there are still more than enough healthy cells left to get the job done without adversely affecting anything. No significant difference in lag time, krausen, or off flavors. It simply doesn't matter. To say otherwise is either dishonest or uninformed (I suspect the latter). And it's not helpful.

Maybe not a perfect analogy, but imagine you rent a car. This rental agency says that they don't care how much gas is in the tank when you drop it off. A gas station across the street is selling gas for $3/gal with a 10 gallon minimum. There's another station next door selling gas for $10/gal with a 3 gallon minimum. You know that you need exactly 2 gallons of gas to get you to where you're going and back. Which will better serve your specific, immediate need?

The point is, there are enough cells in a packet of dry yeast to render moot all the bad things that happen to yeast when pitched according to the package directions.

As to yeast being necessary after fermentation is complete - due to various constraints and scheduling issues, I've done it both ways many times and I can say, with a high level of confidence, that the beers I've left on the yeast have matured 'better' than those that I fined after a week (a Cream Ale, in a recent case). Other brewers have drawn similar conclusions.

Intuitively, it's better to not kill yeast cells. But if you don't need them, it makes absolutely no difference.

P.S.: sorry if I was a bit harsh.

 

I am truly surprised how the WL007 reacts totally different than the standard dry ale yeast. My previous three batches were going nuts in the air lock day one and two then they taper off to almost nothing on day 5. With my first attempt at a true IPA I have used the WL007 yeast and day one and two were hardly anything at all .. Now as each day passes the air lock activity increases .. I am on day 4 now and the air lock is releasing every two seconds or so .. as compared to every 10-15 seconds on day 3. Does everyone have similar response with the different yeasts?

Btw .. The beer started with OG 1.065 , sitting in a Ale pale at 68 degrees.

 

I always have better results with racking to a secondary, less off flavors from the sediment at the bottom. I do think dry hopping is best in a secondary, less sediment to deal with when bottling. Yet, it also depends on your system, some may have better equipment that filters out more in the primary...maybe thats why some suggest dry hopping in the primary? All the experienced brewers I know say dry hop in secondary though.

 

In this thread, we have the classic dry yeast vs rehydrated yeast topic and the dry hop in the primary vs. secondary topic.

This thread is gold, Jerry...gold!

 

Have you done an any A/B comparisons?

 

just a heads up, I dryhop in primary now...