Dry Hop Timing in NEIPAs?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Feb 10, 2020.

  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,873) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    For anyone who has experimented much with dry hop timing in NEIPAs... have you found you get better haze retention with dry hopping during fermentation, or post-fermentation, or some combination of both? TIA!
     
  2. ECCS

    ECCS Initiate (197) Oct 28, 2015 Illinois
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    For a 5gal batch using Wyeast 1318,I usually do about 2-4oz 48hrs after I pitch (during peak fermentation) and then another 4-6oz after fermentation and about 3 days before I keg. I’ve never had a NeIPA drop it’s haze in the keg (kegs only last about 8 weeks in the fridge)

    this pic was about 7 weeks after kegging


    [​IMG]
     
  3. 209Hill

    209Hill Initiate (37) Dec 22, 2016 Virginia

    I don't have a scientific comparison (no control group) but my practice is both - half my DH nearing the end of active fermentation and the other half a few days before kegging.
     
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  4. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (83) Dec 16, 2016 Alberta (Canada)
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    I’ve done it lots of different ways but haven’t noticed one way or the other producing noticeably different results in terms of haze.

    This is a subject I have been paying a lot of attention to since using floating dip tubes on some kegs. I noticed my NEIPAs were going somewhat lifeless after a few weeks when using the floating dip tube. I couldn’t figure it out until one day I decided to (yikes) invert my keg a few times, let it settle a bit and then pour a glass. Boom it’s back to 100% punch in face hop flavour and haze similar to when it was kegged. It seems like a cringe worthy move but it totally worked!

    I know there is a lot of talk about haze being a product of the process and not the goal , but I strongly believe that the haze (granted it’s mostly hop derived) kind of should be the goal.

    All that said (I’m curious what other people’s experience with haze stability has been) I am starting to believe the best bang for buck is to let the beer drop bright, and then aggressively dry hop. Under CO2 obviously.

    Also the latest Master Brewers Podcast is on haze stability and might be worth checking out, Although it focusses mostly on using alternative hop products like tetra and extracts etc...
     
  5. skleice

    skleice Aspirant (269) Aug 6, 2015 Connecticut

    I also feel that it doesn't make much of a difference. I've tried biotrans, traditional, double DH, DH at wort transfer into fermenter, etc. I've also seen a clear beer turn totally hazy once dry hops were added.
     
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  6. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (83) Dec 16, 2016 Alberta (Canada)
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    One more thing to add is IIRC Scott Janish talks about the correlation between haze and overall hop oil content... I’ll have to try and find it but that book is kind of hard to navigate ...
     
  7. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Devotee (457) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont

    When I use to make them I'd dump a bunch at FO a bunch towards the end of ferment and another bunch 3 days after that.
    Bottles only here and like above, they last 7 weeks at best. Most of the time it was more like 4 weeks if the regulars really liked it.
     
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  8. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (267) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    I dry hop day 2 fermentation and day 5 as it’s slowing down/stopped. No scientific data just what I’ve found tastes good and likely reduces oxygen exposure.
     
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  9. Brewday

    Brewday Initiate (150) Dec 25, 2015 New York

    You probably won't get the right answer since most do both in the same batch but i think the WP beats the hops up and makes a difference.
     
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  10. skivtjerry

    skivtjerry Zealot (526) Mar 10, 2006 Vermont

    I believe that adding hops during fermentation is essential to getting a good stable haze and the flavor that goes with it. I pitch hops and yeast together. Also whirlpool and dry hopping, pretty much equal quantities for all 3 additions (I usually do a small first wort hop as well).
     
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  11. wasatchback

    wasatchback Disciple (344) Jan 12, 2014 Bahamas
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    Probably made 200+ hoppy beers over the last 3-4 years. Tried just about every grist bill, hopping regime, water profile, etc.

    The most stable haze has always been when dry hopping after fermentation has finished and slightly cooling to drop as much yeast as possible before dry hopping. Large DH amounts with hops high in polyphenols are what really create haze, and haze that lasts.

    I use a vey high floccing yeast, no wheat or oats, no hops during fermentation, and most beers never clear.

    There are lots of studies out there that have shown adding lots of high alpha hops during fermentation can cause some serious off flavors/aromas. The new American Noble hops from YCH are interesting for this matter. A lot of the stuff that actually gets biotransformed is found in the bracht material and not in the lupulin. You can add a bunch of these hops without all the alpha acids.

    Most of the top breweries producing this “style” aren’t adding hops during fermentation.
     
  12. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (60) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin
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    Another data point but completely agree here. I think my haze stability and flavor has increased 10 fold since moving all DH to after a soft crash to drop yeast. I've also noticed I never get hop burn either. Huge plus.

    I've started dry hopping in a keg with a floating dip tube so I can rotate it. I tip it in the morning before I go to work and at night when I come home. 3 days. Transfer to a fresh serving keg. Haze and hop flavor for months.
     
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  13. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (83) Dec 16, 2016 Alberta (Canada)
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    Do you have a filtered floating dip tube or are you bagging your hops ? I have been bagging but intend to pick up the CBDS filtered dip tubes at some point here - hoping for better extraction...
     
  14. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (60) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin
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    I have the CBDS with filter. Toss those bad boys in commando and let them to their thing. Works wonderfully!
     
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  15. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (83) Dec 16, 2016 Alberta (Canada)
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    I recall an interview with Henry Nguyen at Monkish (I think on Craft Beer and Brewing?) where he swore by dropping as much yeast before dry hop as possible. They seem to do pretty well with their IPAs!

    I stopped cold crashing after running into too many issues with suck back. I use SS brewbuckets with the 90 degree barb fitting. I run a silicone tube from the fermenter to a keg to purge during fermentation, and a blowoff from the keg to a bucket of sanitizer. I'm not confident that if I cold crash I wouldn't depressurize the keg and blow my O2 barrier.

    What do all you cold crashers do to prevent O2 before dryhop?
     
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  16. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,873) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    Have you considered a spunding valve (instead of a blowoff) for your keg? It would still allow your fermentation to purge the keg, but it would also prevent suck back.
     
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  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,368) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    I personally do not perform cold crashing but if I wanted to do this I would consider using a mylar balloon filled with CO2 from the fermentor prior to cold crashing - the suck back would then be CO2 vs. air.

    You can read more here:

    http://brulosophy.com/2018/05/10/7-methods-for-reducing-cold-side-oxidation-when-brewing-beer/

    Cheers!
     
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  18. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (83) Dec 16, 2016 Alberta (Canada)
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    I tried that once actually, and it was kind of a nightmare - I couldn't get it to seal properly and decided it was much too hacky of a solution to want to use regularly.

    This is an interesting idea for sure. My main concern with the suck back is the negative pressure once the beer has contracted just letting the keg lid unseat ...

    do you think if a spunding valve kept ~5 psi on the keg that would be enough to keep the system from leaking during the contraction? ...

    The other issue there is that the SS brewbuckets are'nt great at holding even a little bit of pressure (in my experience anyway) I hooked up a gas line to the barbed fitting on my lid with some silicon tubing, set it to 1 or 2 psi, then proceeded to loose an entire bottle of gas from a leak in the lid gasket during cold crash...
     
  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,368) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Yup, a tight seal is needed for this to work.

    Apparently Marshall Schott knows how to implement this.

    Cheers!
     
  20. epk

    epk Initiate (169) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    If you are cold crashing in the keg anyway, just can remove the spunding valve and hit it with positive pressure.
     
  21. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (83) Dec 16, 2016 Alberta (Canada)
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    I'm fermenting in a SS brewbucket with a blowoff going to a keg, so the fermentation will purge the keg. The concern is the suck back will break the seal of the keg lid
     
  22. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,873) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    I would think so. But if it were to start to drop too low for comfort, you could always attach a CO2 cylinder and regulator to bring it back up.

    Or you could wrap lots of duct tape around a valentines day balloon. WTF.
     
    #22 VikeMan, Feb 14, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  23. epk

    epk Initiate (169) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    Oops, missed that part. And like you said the brewbucket isn't great at holding pressure (website says it is rated for only 1 psi). So if the keg is attached to the brewbucket, and the brewbucket can't hold more than 1 psi, how can the spunding valve be set to 5 psi without affecting the brewbucket? Am I missing something?
     
  24. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (83) Dec 16, 2016 Alberta (Canada)
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    Yeah no you are on the money there - that is part of the problem. I'm not even sure it is great at holding 1psi to be honest, I did a test with the empty brewbucket hooked up to a keg with 1-2 psi, left it for a few hours and came back, and there was no sign that the fermenter was holding any pressure..

    I have done some research and found some people talking about using the domed 3" TC lid that fits the conicals on the brewbucket - apparently they fit. People seem to think that these lids are much more sturdy and better for a bit of gas pressure in closed transfers.

    I have emailed SS brewtech to see if there is any reason why the domed lid would be better, because I would consider that, even though its a bit spendy ...
     
  25. riptorn

    riptorn Aspirant (281) Apr 26, 2018 North Carolina
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    It’ll be interesting to read the response from SS brewtech.
    The beefier domed lid might help, but I'd bet the limiting factor for your brew bucket is probably the clamps. They might refer you here, which tells how to modify the flat lid to accommodate pressurized transfers. Cost is over $100 unless you already have a 17mm hole saw, or if you’re willing to spend the time to source some of the parts elsewhere.
    Their disclaimer in bright red font on the linked page implies you’ll still be limited to a gradual increase to ~1 psi, and definitely no bursts of 2.5 psi.

    However, the fact that they offer this task-specific accessory kind of suggests that it works, or at least there's the perception of a market for it.

    Apologies @VikeMan for perpetuating the thread derailment. Did you get what you wanted re: hop timing? Scott Janish devotes a chapter to haze in The New IPA.
     
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  26. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,873) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    I have Scott's book. It's a lot of good theory, and/but I was hoping for some actual comparisons, which this thread provided to some extent, at least anecdotally.

    Side Note; I have a NEIPA fermenting right now. I skipped pure oxygen this time, because of the grunged stone from the other thread. I'm also using Imperial Juice for the first time, and I notice the manufacturer warns that the strain requires very high DO levels. I guess I'll find out.
     
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  27. epk

    epk Initiate (169) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    I was curious about that warning. Isn't Juice basically wy 1318? I'm about to use it myself.
     
  28. epk

    epk Initiate (169) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    Also what temp are you fermenting at? I was going to just start at my standard 64, but have read people have success in the upper range, into the low 70s.
     
  29. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,873) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    That's what I've heard.

    68F
     
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  30. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (83) Dec 16, 2016 Alberta (Canada)
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    Ya sorry for the full on thread derailment (although it is related to my pursuit of more stable haze in a very round about way)

    Here is what SS Brewtech said about my issue with the brew bucket holding pressure / domed lid:

    While these are designed for low pressures around 1-2psi, they should hold tight within that area. I'm not sure the Domed Lid would offer you much more here in terms of rigidity but I think this may just be an issue with a loose seal that we can sort out. I would first recommend testing for the location of the leak by spraying the rim with star san and looking for bubbles forming. If it looks to be coming from a particular area, I would recommend trying to tighten the clamps in that area. We have a good knowledge base article on how to do that. If that does not help, I would doublecheck the gasket fit and make sure there is no damage to it that could prevent a good seal. Applying a light layer of keg lube to the gasket may also help ensure a good seal. We do offer replacement lid gaskets if your's is damaged and needs to be replaced.

    In the meantime, for the hazy pale ale I'm brewing this Friday I plan on using Wyeast 1968, which is an amazing flocculator. No fermentation dry hop, and this should allow me to get some relatively bright beer with no cold crash before pummeling it with post fermentation dry hop.
     
  31. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (256) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    oh we'll be discussing this alright @VikeMan although don't have truly definitive answers, the latest research has shed more light on it...
     
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  32. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,368) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    In the latest issue (March/April 2020) issue of Zymurgy magazine there is an article entitled “Hops – The Latest Research” by Stan Hieronymus. There is a section entitled ‘Haze”.

    There was no explicit discussion on dry hop timing but (with emphasis in bold by me):

    “Scientists at international hop supplier Hopsteiner …study to reveal “Hidden Secrets of the New England IPA.

    Analysis of the haze showed it to contain about 36 percent protein, 12 percent hop compounds, 10 percent carbohydrates and 3 percent polyphenols. Yeast are generally not a contributor. High-protein adjuncts such as wheat and oats rich in prolamins (haze protein) combine with polyphenols to form haze”. Hop acids also add to haze, but their contribution is small.”

    I suppose whatever can be done to increase haze proteins (e.g., wheat, oats,….) and polyphenols (from both grains and hops) will optimize permahaze. Are there dry hopping strategies that optimize hop polyphenol contributions? @telejunkie

    Cheers!
     
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  33. epk

    epk Initiate (169) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    @thebriansmaude, maybe you already know, but you can also purchase a low psi guage to help dial in 1-2 psi a little more accurarely. I have a seperate regulator for pressurizing my conical that uses a 0-15 psi guage. I think it's rated to 4 psi, I never push it over 2 really. I see some that have even lower max psi.

    Never really thought about it, but it makes me wonder if the guages have a margin of error so that if you are trying to keep 1 psi on a 60 psi guage it may be over without you knowing and the first line is probably already 2 psi.
     
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  34. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (83) Dec 16, 2016 Alberta (Canada)
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    thanks @epk that is good to know. I tried out tightening my clamps on the brewbucket and it seems to have worked - i must have loosened them off by applying too much pressure at some point. I did a pressure test by juuuust cracking the regulator and it settled and held pressure for a few hours.

    Also relevant to the Haze - the last episode of the Master Brewer's podcast is on dry hop inefficiency with Tom Shellhammer. It is pretty interesting if you haven't checked it out yet !
     
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