Efficiency question

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by jlordi12, Feb 10, 2014.

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  1. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Pooh-Bah (1,856) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah

    So I was banking on 70~ efficiency and I'm calculating 96. If you dump the trub and all in the bucket does that skew things? I have six gallons in the bucket. My Og is 1.064 I was shooting for 1.052/3 for a 5.5 gallon batch. What the hell happened?

    #8.5 2 row
    .5 light wheat
    .5 c60
    1 sugar
     
  2. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Pooh-Bah (1,856) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah

    just some background. My last efficiency sucked, I was around 60 (biab)

    Things different this time;
    double crush
    lower mash temp 150 vs 157
    less grains
    able to get all the liquid out because my arms didn't get tired with less weight
    2 gallon sparge at 170.

    Could all this add up to a 36% increase in efficiency? seems hard to fathom. It would be nice to get a handle on this
     
  3. sjverla

    sjverla Initiate (0) Dec 1, 2008 Massachusetts

    I'd say yeah, depending on the difference in grain weight, the double crush and being able to squeeze more wort, you'd see a significant increase. Also if you brewed different styles (dark vs. light) the mash pH could be a factor here.

    My understanding of BIAB is that 60 can actually be fairly normal. The one BIAB batch I've done was 66%. Lower isn't uncommon either, based on my understanding.
     
  4. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    I don't BIAB but that seems awefully high, is it possible that the temps were drastically different and you aren't adjusting the hydrometer readings for temp?
     
  5. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Pooh-Bah (1,856) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah

    Not possible, I measured at 59. I havent checked calibration in a bit, but that might be .001 at most. I can't figure out where the hell I miscaluted. Is 96% even achievable?
     
    Homebrew42 likes this.
  6. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Pooh-Bah (1,856) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah

    Is a higher PH going to increase efficiency or vice versa?
     
  7. sjverla

    sjverla Initiate (0) Dec 1, 2008 Massachusetts

    It's not so much about higher pH, more about the range. You'll get better results when your mash pH is between 5.1-5.4 according to Palmer. So depending on the darkness of the malts (darker malts can increase acidity), if you already have slightly acidic water and brew a dark, roasty beer, that could throw your pH into problematically acidic territory, negatively impacting your extraction and conversion.

    Or if you have very basic water and brew with grains that can increase acidity, that could bump you into an optimal range, improving mash efficiency.

    I do agree that 96% seems insanely high, but I suppose it's possible. I've gotten into the upper 80s.
     
  8. MLucky

    MLucky Initiate (0) Jul 31, 2010 California

    Well, it does seem as if some kind of miscalculation would be more likely than 90% efficiency. And there are two calculations that spring to mind as directly relevant: 1) hydrometer calibration and measurement, which you feel confident were correct, and 2) ingredient measurement. If, for example, you started with 9.5 lbs two row rather than 8.5, that could explain the bulk of the difference.
     
  9. ssam

    ssam Pundit (997) Dec 2, 2008 California

    Did you not sparge your other ones at all? When I've done biab I usually just do no sparge and my efficiency is around 60 or lower. Sparging will definitely get more sugars out so that will contribute to higher efficiency. But again 96% seems mythical.
     
  10. joshrosborne

    joshrosborne Initiate (0) Jun 14, 2010 Michigan

    Did you include your sugar addition in the original calculation? That would make a really large difference in calculated efficiency.
     
  11. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Pooh-Bah (1,856) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah

    I've done it w/ and w/out. I agree it does get a lot more sugars about, the 96% # just can't be right though.

    I wonder if the scale at lhbs wasn't functioning properly it didn't seem to move from zero for a half second so maybe I ended with slightly more grain and higher efficiency than expected to boot
     
  12. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Pooh-Bah (1,856) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah

    I did. I ve put the recipe in brewers friend a half dozen times by now.
     
  13. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Pooh-Bah (1,856) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah

    The question I'm trying to have answered is this. If you have your calculator set for fermentor for the batch size is that assuming you are leaving trub behind (what would that estimate for trub loss)? If that is the case and assuming ,5 out of my 6 gallons would be considered trub I'd be left with a higher yet more realistic efficiency. Thoughts on this ?
     
  14. mattbk

    mattbk Savant (1,111) Dec 12, 2011 New York

    Yes, if you dump everything in and you have a gallon worth of solids in your fermenter it will inflate your numbers. ie 88% efficiency at 5.5 gallons (calculated in BS2) and 70% efficiency at 4.5 gallons.

    You are most likely off by your volume. Once you bottle/keg/rack your beer, you will know for sure.

    I should mention also: if you've done a 2 gallon sparge, you almost certainly will not have that high of an efficiency. Rule of thumb being that sparge volume should be at least as high and is often higher than mash volume. For this recipe for instance, I would probably mash with about 3 gals of water and sparge with about 5 gals of water.

    The good thing is your efficiency should almost certainly be higher than 60%, so you are moving in the right direction!
     
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  15. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Pooh-Bah (1,856) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah

    I mash with a lot more water than I sparge because I think it holds temps better the more the pot is filled. I think I'm still in the 80s for this batch but at least that number is fathomable.
     
  16. mattbk

    mattbk Savant (1,111) Dec 12, 2011 New York

    In my experience, a thicker mash will hold heat better than a thinner mash. The larger sparge volume also gives you more time to rinse the grains of remaining sugar, and therefore better efficiency. However, you're right - if your mash tun has a lot of head space, that can cool your mash quite a bit faster. Good luck!
     
  17. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2006 New York

    You should not be including the sugar in your calculation of efficiency. You should subtract the gravity added by the sugar from the gravity that you have in the fermenter and use that figure to calculate your extraction efficiency. In other words of you are using the OG of 1.064 in your calculation then you're going to get an erroneously high figure.
     
    #17 Homebrew42, Feb 11, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2014
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  18. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Pooh-Bah (1,856) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah

    That's a good point that I was unaware of. Thanks
     
  19. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Pooh-Bah (1,856) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah

    based on a few things I've learned in the thread, I'd say I was anywhere between 85 & 88 so not crazy, crazy, but I'll use a different target next time. Maybe overestimate and add DME if needed.

    Thanks for everyone for taking the time to reply and educate me
     
  20. Homebrew42

    Homebrew42 Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2006 New York

    Think of it this way, efficiency is a measure of how much sugar you were able to extract from the grain, so the calculation should only include sugars that were extracted from the grain, not sugars added from other sources.
     
    Theortiz01 likes this.
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