Epic Saison fail - Mash & Boil

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by JayDubTrub, May 4, 2018.

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  1. JayDubTrub

    JayDubTrub Crusader (413) Feb 17, 2017 California

    Alright - this was my lowest OG on an all grain to date (7th one, previous partials), and even the OG is ahoo -

    This was also my first brew crushing my own grain - I used this from William's:
    https://www.williamsbrewing.com/MALTMUNCHER-DUAL-ROLLER-MILL-P4174.aspx

    First 3 lbs came out too powdery, so adjusted and the next 7 looked good. Recipe was 9lb Castle Belgian Pilsner, 1lb Belg Wheat. Used RO water w/ 1/2tsp Gypsum and 1/2 CaCl for 3.8g mash, rinsed grains/sparged (RO no additions round 6pH) with additional 4g at 170...brew kit is the Mash & Boil.

    Issues/questions to troubleshoot what the hell went wrong (yes I'm having a post-op home brew to chillax).

    Refractometer or hydrometer way off??
    BrewCipher (thanks btw for some cool free software - is there a password btw on the water tab?) predicted pre-boil 1.042, post boil 1.053. I came out with, per Refractometer, 1.036 pre-boil, and post-boil 1.037. I did calibrate with RO at 68f and was 0 to 001, prior to use. Took a OG reading w/the trusty(?) hydrometer as well prior to pitching, it read 1.030 (never been this low on any brew). Wort in fermenter for post-boil readings was at 70f. Thoughts re~wide difference in refractometer/hydrometer readings.

    Grain - Could the really really poor extraction have come from over-crushing the first 3lbs of grains? They looked more powedery than those I crush at the LBS. I thought the next 7lbs looked just right - broken but not pulverized husks...? I suspect this was the big issue.

    Other details: Mashed ~148 for 80 minutes (M&B fluctuates 146-154) with about a gallon volauf-ish,. Sparged as above by rinsing grains suspended above wort, with 4-4.5g). I hit target volume of 6g with this approach.

    Thoughts where all this went wrong? Honestly I feel like each M&B brew has gotten more perplexingly poor extraction. Could just need a lot more draining, pouring over the top, and stirring a lot during mash...Just want to learn.

    This is a Saison so I hit it in the fermenter w/additional 1/2lb DME + 14oz corn sugar boiled and cooled, added to fermenter prior to pitching 1.5L WL565 starter...should be dry! Hopefully not too bitter given target hops (.25oz Magnum bittering, .5oz Tettnang at 30, 2oz Lemondrop at flameout along with 2 bags chamomile) - at least the style is supposed to be dry...
     
  2. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    This is most likely the problem, sounds like you didn't properly set the gap for your rollers. Without a feeler gauge you're shooting in the dark. I wouldn't crush without a gauge anymore than not weighing the grain or measuring the water.

    Your other possible source of error is channeling while lautering. You don't want to stir when fly sparging, rather you want a firm grain bed to form. Consider batch sparging next time to try and correct.
     
  3. Eggman20

    Eggman20 Crusader (433) Feb 14, 2017 Minnesota

    Over crushing your grains is unlikely to lead to low extraction. Very likely to lead to a stuck runoff though unless you used lots of rice hulls.

    Did you test the ph at all or just trust the spreadsheet result that your ph would be in range? From my experience low extraction comes from under crushing grains, crushing grains too early before brew day, and/or poor mash ph.

    Seems very unlikely you only gained .001 gravity points after boiling unless you didn't really boil.
     
  4. JayDubTrub

    JayDubTrub Crusader (413) Feb 17, 2017 California

    Yeah, weird. Readings must be off - used new refractometer off of amazon, looked good in calibration...I did pH test prior to today of my tap and RO (filtered tap) - both samples came out at 6.0 with ColorPhast strips. Crushed right before mashing too...
     
  5. JayDubTrub

    JayDubTrub Crusader (413) Feb 17, 2017 California

    Gotta say, never had reason to doubt my hydrometer before so when that gave me 1.030 in the fermenter I was tripping...(hence the corn sugar and DME). Don't need a strong saison, but a reasonable one.
     
  6. Eggman20

    Eggman20 Crusader (433) Feb 14, 2017 Minnesota

    Yeah never had a problem with hydrometer either. A sudden drop in efficiency was the final kick I needed tto get my own grain mill and since then have never had an issue. Usually mill about .0375 and last saison got 82% efficiency with a 45 minute mash with a long run off. Also very careful about mash ph. Lighter beers I usually need some acid malt (or you can just use acids) to get my ph in check.
     
  7. Eggman20

    Eggman20 Crusader (433) Feb 14, 2017 Minnesota

    Reading through a little more and have some questions. Are you fly sparking or batch sparking? If you had 3.8 gallons in mash and 10 lbs of grain you should have only needed 3.2 gallons of spare to get to 6 gallons (assuming .1/gallons per pound is soaked by grain which has been close for me).
     
  8. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Savant (1,208) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    Definitely your crush or channeling but crush would be my first guess. Get a feeler gauge at a car supply store. I don’t sparge at all and my efficiency is usually spot on. I think your beer will be okay though.
     
  9. Eggman20

    Eggman20 Crusader (433) Feb 14, 2017 Minnesota

    Sparging! Stupid iPad autocorrect
     
  10. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Some parts of the water sheet (and most of the sheets) are password protected, so that users can't inadvertently screw up the formulae. What is it that you want to change?
     
  11. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Pooh-Bah (2,236) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah

    Just a guess. You may have corrected your mill so that you are not getting enough exposure. You will get the color, and probably flavor. But. Not much else. Powdery looking milled grain, while annoying to clean up after. Is not going to cause the kind of problems that you are experiencing.
     
  12. JayDubTrub

    JayDubTrub Crusader (413) Feb 17, 2017 California

    Good tip - I'd rather pulverize the stuff and add rice hulls than miss extraction...
     
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  13. JayDubTrub

    JayDubTrub Crusader (413) Feb 17, 2017 California

    Revisited it before replying - I'm having no problems now with the Salt Additions near bottom, must have been trying to mess with the Water Results portion at the time, which shouldn't be messed with :wink:. Really enjoying this software as I get the rig settings all dialed in...
     
  14. deadwolfbones

    deadwolfbones Pundit (795) Jun 21, 2014 Oregon

    Sounds like you made a grisette!
     
  15. JayDubTrub

    JayDubTrub Crusader (413) Feb 17, 2017 California

    Well for those messing with mashing in the M&B, all I can say is I switched to tea bagging my grains in 2+ gallons of water post mash/brief rinse, and the shiznits gone to ~80%. Raise a glass to the tea bag, you ugly 10lb pre-wet soggy grain bag!
     
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  16. Brewday

    Brewday Zealot (721) Dec 25, 2015 New York

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  17. Maestro0708

    Maestro0708 Initiate (0) Feb 27, 2015 Kentucky

    I was able to significantly boost my efficiency with this system by milling my own grain with the gap set to .035. I always get better than 80% efficiency on average or lower gravity beers. After dialing everything in this system has been awesome for me!

    Cheers
     
  18. riptorn

    riptorn Pooh-Bah (1,776) Apr 26, 2018 Georgia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

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  19. JayDubTrub

    JayDubTrub Crusader (413) Feb 17, 2017 California

  20. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I was surprised to read that as well. I wonder if this is an issue of scale? Maybe on a homebrew scale/setup a finer crush yields improved efficiency?

    Edit: A potential variable is the method of sparging?

    Cheers!
     
    Maestro0708 likes this.
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