Established breweries vs. beer trends.

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by Biggtriksta, Mar 21, 2017.

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  1. Biggtriksta

    Biggtriksta Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2013 New York

    Take a brewery like Russian River. Russian River grew to acclaim producing beers like Pliny the Elder, Blind Pig, Supplication, etc. They are a well-established brewery that has been sought after by many beer drinkers for a long time now. They don't deviate much from the styles that they produce well: west coast IPAs and sours, mostly. I know they do make some stouts, porters, pilsners, but those are not their go-to beers.

    The craft beer world is ever-changing, and certain styles of beer become trendy at different times. Obviously, hazy IPAs have been one of the largest trends recently, and we've seen a lot of breweries (Tired Hands, Trillium, Other Half, Tree House, etc.) become immensely popular because of this.

    How does a brewery like Russian River (or even Sierra Nevada, Dogfish Head, and Lagunitas for that matter) stay relevant? Do they change the beer they're making and re-brand? Do they even need to? Do they stick with what they know, but try experimenting with some more trendy styles? Does it even matter?
     
  2. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    “How does a brewery like Russian River (or even Sierra Nevada, Dogfish Head, and Lagunitas for that matter) stay relevant?”

    I do not think that Russian River needs to worry here since their business plan is different than the other breweries you mentioned. Russian River has purposefully chosen to not greatly expand and even with a second brewery they can’t produce enough beer to meet demand.

    Permit me to discuss Sierra Nevada as an example. In 2016 sales of their flagship beer (SNPA) were down. In 2016 they made a decision to add two new beers to their year round portfolio: Sidecar (which is brewed using oranges) and Tropical IPA. It appears that Sierra Nevada thinks that adding more beers to its portfolio of products is one way to “stay relevant”.



    “Do they change the beer they're making and re-brand?”

    Well, I already discussed this for the case of Sierra Nevada. Now, let me discuss Stone. Last year Stone made a decision to ‘update’ Stone IPA, which they rebranded via Stone IPA v1.1. Stone also reworked their releases for 2017 such that is very, very much hoppy beers. It seems that Stone decided that the path to financial success in 2017 is to service the hoppy craft beer market.



    “Do they even need to?”

    Again, let’s discuss Stone here. Last year Stone laid off something like 5% of their employees. My guess is that Stone really thinks they need to do ‘something’ in 2017 in order to improve their financial performance.

    Green Flash also recently had lay-offs. I would guess that they are also thinking about how to do things differently in 2017.



    “Do they stick with what they know, but try experimenting with some more trendy styles?”

    For the case of Stone Brewing it seems that they are concentrating on their ‘core’ of hoppy beers. Sierra Nevada also added two hoppy beers to their portfolio.


    “Does it even matter?”

    For those breweries that would prefer to not lay-off more employees I would think this matters greatly.


    Cheers!
     
    #2 JackHorzempa, Mar 21, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  3. Harrison8

    Harrison8 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,285) Dec 6, 2015 Missouri
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Nice response from Jack. I'll add a few things:

    Large breweries like Lagunitas and Founder's are releasing more and more funky beer variations, which some have speculated as them trying to bring folks over to the craft beer community (Founder's sugary-sweet barrel aged series), or prove their ability to nail multiple styles at a very reasonable cost (Lagunitas One-Hit series).

    With people still talking about High-Westified, Waldo, and other One-Hit series from Lagunitas, I think it's safe to say breweries do have to adapt their business plan and beer line over time, but that doesn't not mean they'll have to add NE IPAs to their line up to stay alive.

    Any business that wants to continue to thrive will need to adapt in some manner. New regulations, technology, trends, etc. create a world where businesses need to adapt in order to continue to pay the rent.
     
  4. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I agree that adding murky IPAs is not a requirement but in my opinion this year's Lagunitas Born Yesterday was a so called 'NE' style IPA and it was AWESOME!! I bought several 6-packs of that beer. Even though I continuously stored those beers cold, they didn't hold up all that well for my palate. About 1.5 months post the bottling date those beers started to 'turn' (and needless to say not for the better).

    Generally speaking the so called 'NE' style IPA is a delicate beer style. Perhaps best left to local, smaller breweries or a one-off/seasonal release by the large(r) distributing craft breweries (e.g., Lagunitas Born Yesterday).

    Cheers!
     
  5. thuey

    thuey Pooh-Bah (1,705) Nov 13, 2015 California
    Pooh-Bah

    As long as it continues to be profitable to do status quo, then there's no reason to change.

    On the other hand, there are definitely breweries out there where their market share is slipping quickly (see: Speakeasy Ales & Lagers) and they need to evolve or die.
     
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  6. Harrison8

    Harrison8 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,285) Dec 6, 2015 Missouri
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Ah, yes. I totally forgot about that beer. It was absolutely delicious. I worried I paid too much to try a 6 pack when I only saw one pack, but I'm glad to say the WBAYDN threads around then led me correct.
     
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  7. Urk1127

    Urk1127 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,790) Jul 2, 2014 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I believe there will always be those "classics" that are timeless. I believe those beers are so classically great that some brewers may not feel a drop in sale in lieu of the trendy beers.

    For example. Stone to my knowledge does not like those juice bomb milkshakes Hense a quote from tangerine express "this is not one of those orange juice ipas. We like our ipa to taste like beer" something like that. And they are still incredibly popular.

    Some on the other hand like dogfish are coming out with new releases after what seems forever since a new recipe.
     
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  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I wonder if Stone could develop a stable (i.e., a beer that would last on shelves) Milkshake type beer if they would change their tune here?

    Cheers!
     
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  9. Urk1127

    Urk1127 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,790) Jul 2, 2014 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I would definitely try it. The quote I mentioned is not exactly but something along those lines. I know they have done unfiltered ipas but can't remember a new England style if you will call them that.
     
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I drank a glass of one of the Unfiltered Enjoy By releases. That beer was good but I personally did not notice any difference from the 'regular' (i.e., filtered) Enjoy By beers.

    In my opinion Stone does not produce beers of the so called 'NE' style IPA. The only large(r) production brewery that has made this sort of beer is Laguntas for this year's release of Born Yesterday.

    The so called 'NE' style IPA is generally not suited for long term storage (i.e., sitting in wholesale distributor warehouses, on beer store shelves,...). Maybe someday one of the breweries (e.g., Sierra Nevada) will develop brewing techniques to address the beer stability issues of these beers? Until then your best bet is to travel to Tired Hands for these beers.

    Cheers!

    P.S. Or maybe Brotherton would be more convenient for you?
     
  11. rozzom

    rozzom Pooh-Bah (2,620) Jan 22, 2011 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Russian River is an interesting one. When I joined BA they were the brewery on here. If you roll up the current active thread content surrounding the top five or so most talked about breweries - that volume existed solely around RR. The front page of beer talk on the forums (was it called beer talk or something else back then; I forget) usually had 5+ separate discussions around either comparing or acquiring PtE. They were very much at the forefront of conversation.

    Fast forward six years and while lots has changed in craft beer and on BA - it doesn't appear much has with RR.

    Before I get flamed - I'M NOT SAYING THAT IS A BAD THING WHATSOEVER. There's no reason for them to mess with something that works. And I'm glad they don't feel compelled / are confident enough in their existing product not to make an orange juice-like beer, or a double rum barrel aged imperial stout brewed with artisanal coffee, rare chilis and a variety of vanilla only harvested once a decade.

    And an additional disclaimer is that while I've visited a few times, it's been probably around 4 years since I last went. So if there has been a big line-up change or something (didn't appear to be from a quick google), then my bad.

    But, even though by all accounts it seems that they're still very popular / not keeping up with demand / often long waits at the brewery, it's almost as if they're frozen at one point in time. Sort of like a mecca for the pinnacle of craft brewing circa 2010. From the look of the place, to the ~18 beer flights, to the food they serve (cheesy bites), it's all heading to blast from the past territory. And there's much to love about that. And thanks to what Vinnie & co have done for the beer scene, they can (and deserve to) dine out on that for a long time. But I just wonder what their long, long term plan is - because surely at some point in time changing tastes etc will outweigh RR's legacy.
     
  12. Urk1127

    Urk1127 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,790) Jul 2, 2014 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I find that indeed brotherton and also bolero snort are my go to ipas when looking for the NE ipa haze. Cheers.
     
  13. utopiajane

    utopiajane Grand Pooh-Bah (3,982) Jun 11, 2013 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    I honestly think that you can make a different IPA every time. I like the brewers that have a stick to it attitude about the styles they want to bring to you. Like ellicottville and their fruit beer. They also make a terrific oktoberfest. That's a big part of beer is the brewers love for what he or she is doing. When I look at styles on the shelf I tend to look for favorites and that keeps me fortunately in my regionals. I have saranac who seems to keep up with craft beer just fine. Even when I did not buy their case of IPA's they still had one. You stay relevant by brewing lots of beer.
     
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  14. sculls65

    sculls65 Pundit (769) Dec 15, 2008 Michigan

    Yay.. Another NE IPA thread. The whole world doesn't feel the need to drink hazy juice bombs exclusively.
     
  15. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Pooh-Bah (2,236) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah

    In a way. The larger breweries have to factor in what the smaller ones are doing when trends in beer uptick their sales. Russian RIver is not actually involved in expanding. They've hit their fill, and seem to be quite content staying at that capacity. ANother example of a brewery with a limited market is New Glarus. They have their market already set, and they can still grow sales in it for some reason. They seem to get interested in newer styles every now and again that come along, and may eventually have a go at making this oat heavy interpretation of the IPA that is currently trending. Surly I can see getting a little wild over them simply because they are already an IPA heavy facility. 3fff as well.
    Niche buying in the craft world is always changing. It may impact sales of core brands, a bit. No one mentions Lagunitas IPA, but it's percentage of the breweries overall sales is still nothing to scoff at. These breweries have a large enough portfolio overall, and also can be diverse in their output in ways the smaller breweries often times cannot. Lagunitas could afford to annoy people with how it released Sucks while also affording to invest in a separate piece of equipment for 32 oz bombers all because the owner thought it'd look cool to have them roaming around in that section of the cooler.
    Overall, there are so many more breweries and more options with more buyers, that these beers are a very small part of the overall sales, for now.
    The larger breweries are probably seeing how the sales of these styles are increasing in barrel output. They'd also be testing them out on the pilot system, and getting feedback on them at the taproom. You can bet a few more will be on the market soon enough.
     
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  16. Biggtriksta

    Biggtriksta Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2013 New York

    I don't mean to beat a dead horse regarding hazy IPAs, it's just the latest trend. I'm just really fascinated by the trendiness of beer styles, and I'm really curious to see how some of these highly-successful, well-established breweries handle the ever-changing world of craft beer.
     
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  17. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,077) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah

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  18. cavedave

    cavedave Grand Pooh-Bah (4,157) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    In Memoriam Pooh-Bah Trader

    But somehow the ones who don't like it feel compelled to constantly let us know it, and constantly disparage the style.

    "Yayyyy, I'm soooooo cooooool I don't drink those NEIPAs, no man. I'm no hipster or group follower, but what a bunch of foolish trendoids those folks are who enjoy that style of beer I don't like, and look how cool I seem now that I am posting about it."
     
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  19. nc41

    nc41 Initiate (0) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Trader

    I like what Foothills in Winston Salem does with their IPAs. They have their basics such as Hoppyum and Jade, but they also do an IPA of the month. Each month they feature a different hop or hop combo, and it's been successful. Your also assured of the beer being fresh. Please less of the watermelon and guava in my IPAs, try crafting the final product by mixing and tweaking the hops available. The fruit to a beer is a shortcut IMO, I can do without them. I will admit the Grapefruit Sculpin was pretty good, but you can achieve about the same results from hops alone too.
     
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  20. FBarber

    FBarber Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,325) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Mod Team BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    Interesting topic OP and there's been some very insightful responses thus far.

    From my perspective there are a few things at play here. On one hand, you do have the ever evolving/changing craft beer market - inherent in this is the coming and going of style trends. We've all seen that certain styles rise and fall in popularity even if their relative overall popularity (consumption?) varies. So for instance, IPAs as a whole are a very popular style regardless of what is going on in various craft trends. The IPA may not be the hot beer of the moment, perhaps its wild ales, but the IPA still remains a highly consumed popular beer. On the flip side, something like a gose (just an example) will not have that high consumption and broad appeal unless it is the style trend of the moment. Once that momentary trend falls, the style consumption falls as well.

    Now to your example - Russian River - their flagship beers are IPAs and sours. So, even if the west coast IPA is not the trend of the minute, there is always a high demand for well made IPAs. But Russian River is not doing well just because they brew quality IPAs - the other side of this coin is that Russian River has established themselves in the craft beer market. They have carved out a niche based on their quality offerings and earned respect. This is why their IPAs and sours are still sought after even if they may not be the particular hot trendy style.

    Carving out a niche, establishing yourself in the craft beer market seems to be one of the most difficult parts of establishing a new brewery. Here in Chicago, the breweries putting out the most "NE-style IPAs" are the new(er) breweries trying to carve out a niche in the craft beer market. With so many solid IPAs, stouts, etc on the shelves here, a new brewery needs something to distinguish itself and get noticed. By offering a NE style IPA its gets them free press, more customers, and hopefully, if the beer is good, a chance to establish themselves in a crowded market. More established local breweries do not need to offer a new brewed hype beer because they have that cache already established.

    But what about staying relevant? Sierra Nevada is a classic. Always good and reliable. Yet, recently they've been releasing a lot of beers that I personally feel are aimed at staying "relevant" - orange sidecar, tropical torpedo, that peach IPA, etc. I think that the larger breweries, like SN or Lagunitas, need to keep their beers selling since they have such a large operation to keep running and thats why they need to offer new beers to stay relevant. This is especially true of places like Stone and Green Flash where for whatever reason (perhaps lagging sales compared to their size), layoffs have hit. Personally, I think staying relevant in these cases is often targeted more at the casual beer drinker than the typical BA beer nerd. My brother who is casually into craft beer comes to mind as he loves picking up a 6-pack of the latest one off SN or New Belgium.

    I think the really interesting thing to see is how these breweries that have capitalized on the NE style trend adapt as the NE style trend eventually fades in popularity (as it undoubtedly eventually will). However, I tend to think that the good ones will stick around and be just fine over time because like the Russian Rivers of the world, they'll have carved out a niche that in an generally overall popular style.


    tl/dr: Complicated questions get complicated (rambly) answers .... :wink:
     
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