Favorite Grisettes

The difference between the words stout, porter, grisette, and saison is that American craft brewers have taken more crafty liberties with things called "stout" and "saison." A bourbon barrel aged stout is a porter, but it's not marketed as such and no one is flipping a coin about it. The saison/grisette dynamic is similar... as if grisettes are going "back to the roots" rather than featuring coffee. There are cases of the opposite of course, but I'm thinking of broad tendencies rather than rules. The horses are out of the barn regarding stouts. There's still time with grisette but we both know what will happen. Why do we have the ego to take everything that ever was and appropriate it? If there's a word for a type of beer from another culture, it doesn't matter what little we know about it because we'll always take that word and put it on our product.

 

But a challenge here is: is there an unambiguous and universally accepted definition for the Grisette beer style?

You are much, much better educated than the typical BA (or beer geek) on the topic of Farmhouse Ales, can you clearly state what defines a Grisette vs. a lower gravity Saison?

I would like to read your detailed style guideline for the Grisette beer style.

Cheers!

 

Don't hold your breath waiting.

The fact that someone is a reasonably good pro brewer doesn't guarantee s/he has much, or even accurate, knowledge of beer history, etc. It's not a required skill and the best we can hope for is that their curiosity leads them to some understanding.

 

Tom, on the history of Saison and Grisette beers even the beer historians are struggling. A few years ago I was able to listen to Randy Mosher speak on this matter as part of a presentation he gave on beer history myths at a National Homebrewers Conference. Last spring I attended a presentation by Dave Janssen on the topic of the history of Saison and Grisette. He professed during his presentation that for him it was a work in progress but he talked about his findings. Unless you know something I don't there is no definitive historical (or contemporary) definition for the Grisette beer style.

Cheers!

 

Jack, it's not hard to read between the lines when you ask a question like that, but if there was any ambiguity in your intent you've made it clear in your later post. My sources are your sources as well - Markowski, Hieronymus, Janssen, etc. I would have loved to have heard that Mosher talk. You referenced that one a while back. I think we are miscommunicating a bit. If there was a clear and accepted idea of what these beers were like, then I would have less of a problem with brewers using the name. Because there is plenty of guesswork involved, I have more of an issue with it. The fuzziness shouldn't give brewers more freedom, but rather, more hesitation.

EDIT - apologies for derailing the intent of the thread

 

I recognize what you are promulgating here but I don't 100% agree.

If there is a definitive definition for the Grisette beer style I could maybe agree with you but in the absence of this I personally have the opinion that breweries should be permitted some leeway. Criticizing a brewery for labeling a Saison-like beer with low-moderate gravity as being a Grisette is a bit narrow-minded in my opinion.

Maybe someday a person (you?) or an organization will create a beer style guideline that is accepted by the beer drinking community but until that happens I would advocate that brewers should be permitted some leeway vs. criticism.

I fully recognize that you personally have a differing viewpoint here.

Merry Christmas!!

 

Are you guys saying that using Saison yeast in a Grisette could be taken as a no-no? Most likely spices as well, too, I'd guess.

 

Given what we have learned about the origins of Saisons, with their roots deep in the history of Farmer's brewing a light, refreshing beer to help attract additional farm hands during harvest time I'd say that they all began using mostly local ingredients and showing wide variability in flavor profiles because of the local populations of bugs and critters. They almost died out until modern versions were revived by Dupont and the alcohold content bumped up to deal with more modern realities.

Grisettes beers would have followed pretty much the same patterns except that they were brewed for miners and early industry workers, with the beers being served/sold to the men by Grisettes (young, french-speaking women/girls from the working class) and hence the name of the beers.

Otherwise those "working class" beers (whether Saisons or Grisettes) would have been pretty much indistinguishable (except for local ingredient variability and brewer skills) from each other back in the day.

So if we allowed a revival of Saisons in their modern day incarnations it's hard to deny brewers the opportunity to revive Grisettes in modern day incarnations, if only to see what will become the definitive Grisette.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it until further evidence is unearthed. (Also I have a good lawyer. :-))

 

Michael, personally I am not prepared to definitely say one way or the other. My best source of information is the presentation of “Brewing Grisette and Saison: Insight from Historical Records and Modern Producers” by David Janssen at this year’s NHC (Homebrew Con),

Dave Janssen spent a fair bit of time researching the history of Grisette and Saison beers but it is a challenging avocation since there is not much in terms of brewing logbooks and what little bit of written history sometimes (often?) contradicts itself.

Some of Dave’s sources:

· Pelset1874

· Petit Journal du Brasseur

· Farmhouse Ales

· Brewing with Wheat

· Various newspapers, late 1800s-early 1900s

· Belgium by Beer (1996)

· Journal of the Institute of Brewing

· Various Belgian, Dutch & French books from the early 1800s

· Discussions with brewers historians and maltsters

He commented upon his research via:

“Very few historical sources

· No scholars cared what poor farmers and small regional breweries did in the 1800s

· The available info is scattered and at times contradictory

· Info biased toward larger producers

· Sometimes the language is difficult

· Over-reliance on few sources”

He provided some ‘guidance’ for homebrewing a contemporary Grisette:

· For yeast he stated: “Saison strain, could be less expressive”

So, according to David Janssen in brewing a Grisette you could use a Saison yeast strain or not.

As regards the topic of spicing, this was not specifically addressed in the presentation.

You can read more on David Janssen’s blog: http://www.horscategoriebrewing.com/

Cheers!

 

Tom, for your consideration this is what Randy Mosher stated in his presentation entitled “(Almost) Everything You Know About Brewing History is Wrong” at the 2015 NHC concerning the topic of Saison/Farmhouse Ales:

“Saison & Farmhouse

• A beautiful fiction

• Saison = summer?

• Saisonniers = migrant workers?

• What does “farmhouse” mean?

• What’s the beer?”

And

“Saison & Farmhouse

• “Farmhouse” beer scarce in history

• Brewing a demanding enterprise”

During the presentation of those charts he basically stated that there is little (none?) written documentation about the ‘story’ that Saisons were brewed by farmers to provide to their summer workers. He is questioning the accuracy of this ‘story’ both from a lack of documentation perspective but from his understanding on how farmer – laborer relations were during the 1800’s. So, who knows here?

Cheers!

 

Never heard or seen this style around before. So, it's a different take on a Saison? What I just saw here on BA, is that it's a lower ABV brew. Sounds interesting, maybe I'll see some of this around here one day.

Cheers!

 

Thanks for the pointer.

Yeah, I'm sure the whole thing is romanticsed and filled with longing for those olden days when life was simpler.

But on the other hand the histories passed down to us by oral tradition often contain a grain of truth. Problem is finding that grain amongst the chaff.

 

Isn't it that the grisette has a sweeter finish and a bit of musty basement that is more sourish than saison like? Smuttynose described it in their beer but I forget which beer.

 

Not according to David Jannsen.

Maria, I would encourage you to visit David Janssen's blog and read his history posts.

Cheers!

 

I know the beer I was thinking of. I am wrong. I was thinking of smistletoe which I thought was a little musty.

 

Jack,

A couple of quick questions.

With your existing homebrewing equipment and plenty of grain, etc. suppose you had nothing to do for two weeks except brew. How many gallons do you estimate you could produce in two weeks of continuous brewing? (Assuming you had a plenty of storage space, say in a barn.)

Now, if you were planning on giving some folks as much low ABV beer as they wanted at lunch time, at an afternoon break, and at dinner time as partial reward for their hard work in the fields, how many people could you provide for assuming they were there for, say, a week or two weeks?

Ball park estimates would be fine.

 

This was a topic that was specifically discussed by Randy Mosher during his presentation. He made the assertion that a Belgian farmer of the 1800s would not produce beer for laborers. Which books (or newspapers or letters or...) was the basis for his opinion here I have no idea but he most definitely had this thought on this matter.

Cheers!

 

An interesting dichotomy of beliefs. Not sure which side I fall on, but think I lean towards @JackHorzempa - though would be nice to have a modern consensus come about in the absence of historical information. Lots of words change meanings over time, those describing beer styles aren't immune to this. I also wonder if the "style's" name was more from its delivery than anything distinct about its production (open question).

Quick URL to follow up Jack's, with the query for grisette - nothing new just a quick shortcut:
http://www.horscategoriebrewing.com/search?q=Grisette

As to the OP, I'll second (third) Right Proper if you are in DC and whose versions of the "style" leans towards "lower ABV saison".

 

Yup, I suggested that Michael (@TongoRad) read David Janssen's blog in my above post.

Cheers!

 

Well I was seeking your best estimates as to how much you could brew based on your being an experienced home brewer who brews beer at home for your wife, yourself, and any family.

As for Mosher I'll do a bit of digging to see more of what I can find. At this point I've no idea what the farm-labor relations were like in the Belgium of the 1800s.

But certainly in the US in that same time frame there are reasons to believe that in some places, contexts, the owner of the property/crop would make provision to provide meals for the people working for him. For example, on a cattle drive in the western states the trail crew were provided for by having a chuck wagon and cook to prep the meals.