Fermentation continuing after 10 days???

I was just looking for an estimate of fermentable sugars in hops as a first approximation to how much fermentable sugar could be contributed in a dry hop. It's small, and that doesn't even consider that extraction may be limited. I suppose yeast might also produce cellulase enzymes (googling suggests this, but I didn't read the articles so might be taking something out of context) which can break down more of the plant matter, but experience with hop sludge suggests this would be a very slow process at best and is not contributing much to beer.

 

OK on the reply to Dave, assumed it was to me.

Breweries are finding increased ABV, and Diacetyl with dry hopping. The AHA seminars are not up on the website yet.

If you do some searches you can find that some information is out there.

https://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?65752-Active-Fermentation-Dry-Hop-pH-and-the-creep

Edit
https://www.johnihaas.com/library/hop-science-newsletter-october-2017/

Alagash and OSU
https://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2017_presentations/Tom-Shellhammer_02.pdf

 

Sometime in the next few days I am going to find time to listen to the new Master Brewers podcast episode 98 which I believe *might* go into this in a little more detail. A previous episode touched on it briefly as well. At this time I'm not sure if it's the enzymes, or sugars, or both, or neither. You guys can argue all you want, I'm outta here, for the time being anyway.

http://masterbrewerspodcast.com/

EDIT: Dang, @hopfenunmaltz, we were looking at the same stuff at the same time apparently. Odds?

 

Neat stuff, fellas. Thanks for sharing.

 

I'll give it a listen, and I'll check out the homebrewcon info when it is posted, and also the links posted here. Sounds like there is some interesting info that will be news to me.

 

As a bottler and natural conditioner, I'm sure glad I'm a patient brewer and can recognize when I have a stuck fermentation, in regards to my recent experience described up above. I read all this stuff about "hop creep" now only after-the-fact, and it's totally consistent with my experience.

"Practical Considerations: What does this mean to you?
•Over-attenuation as a result from dry-hopping can lead to dangerous CO2 levels in the package
•Relevant to all brewers that dry-hop and leave ANY yeast in the package"

Cheers all, and happy learning.

 

Although these experiments were interesting, the information contained is by no means definitive as the OSU experimental design involved only pelletized Cascade hops.

 

I've heard (from a friend who already listened to the podcast) that different hops will have different impacts. Some do nothing, but most do something. Personally, I had used Palisades to dry hop mine.... and I don't think I'll use that again as a dry hop, kind of a weird one.

 

Update. Okay, so here's a nutshell-summary of what I've gathered from the podcast and a couple things I have read so far. OSU, Allagash, and Bell's have worked together to test the enzymatic effects of dry hops. What they've found is that hops, just like malts, contain enzymes that will break down complex sugars into simpler sugars, which will work even at cold temperatures, such that dry hopping in the presence of yeast can have significant (and probably unintentional) effect on ABV and attenuation. [Aside: It is also hypothesized that *perhaps* this is even a reason why dry hopped beers seem to get sweeter over time -- if the yeast is filtered out, but hop enzymes are still present, some complex sugars can be broken down yet left unfermented in the package!] Knowing the FACT that hops contain enzymes, we can keep an eye on this effect, changing the way we dry hop if necessary, to keep things under control.

For those who dry hop before the end of primary fermentation, you probably won't notice anything different. But for those who wait until primary is totally complete and beer is beginning to clear, etc., when dry hops are added at that point, it will typically kick off refermentation, so we need to be cognizant and perhaps should even account for this in recipe formulation, etc., if desired.

They've tested at least 20 different hop samples of all different varieties and ages, and all act a little bit differently. They found that even 3-year-old hops stored at room temp (Centennial, specifically) contained these enzymes and sometimes had an effect. Yet on the other end of the spectrum, they also found hops that have virtually no effect (specifically Citra was cited).

So.......... Personally, I'm certainly going to monitor gravity when dry hopping in future, AND.... I'm even going to use dry hopping as my new awesome tool for unsticking a stuck fermentation!!!! It sure as hell worked on my maibock already, that sucker was stuck, then I dry hopped, and whammo, hit my intended FG. And all due to "The Freshening Power of Dry Hops". Magic. Seriously, Google it:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=the+freshening+power+of+hops

Learn something new every day! Cheers all.

 

Thanks for going over the high points of the podcast, easy to read and succinct assessment.

And thanks for the tutorial for how to to do a google search...man, opened up a whole new world

 

If yeast is not filtered, could the quote above suggest that mash efficiency might be inversely proportional to the effect certain hops might have in affecting ABV, and attenuation?

That sounds like good reason to consider a refractometer.

 

Mash Efficiency <> Fementability

 

Too many double IPAs do seem sweet (but not all), and this has been the reason that I stopped ordering them at breweries. To me it isn't a sugary sweetness, but I can't come up with a descriptor to characterize it. So now that I know this, and I'll begin to check menu descriptions to see if dry-hopping is a part of that beer's make-up. Thanks for the info.

 

Sounds like "yes".

 

...and maybe whether it's filtered? (to late to edit)

 

This might be a stupid question, but I've wondered about it a while. Wouldn't hop particles introduced via dry hop already augment the specific gravity or the refract index? SG is just density relative to water, so adding solids should increase that right? Hops must catch some light so brix would be affected too. Does this make sense or does it really need to be a dissolved sugar to change the gravity?

 

Actually I was saying that Mash Efficiency is "not equal to" Fermentability, i.e. they are mostly unrelated. I wouldn't expect mash efficiency to have an impact on how much dry hopping might affect ABV (by way of low fermentability becoming high fermentability due to the hops).

 

Specific gravity only measures dissolved compounds. It's the classic poodle in the swimming pool argument: If you throw a dozen live poodles into a swimming pool, the specific gravity of the water is still 1.000.

 

I generally prefer 'single' IPAs over double IPAs for the reason you describe. I use the term "cloying sweetness" to describe this situation.

Cheers!

 

But if you throw too many poodles in, it will be hard to use your hydrometer.