Fermentation Hopping & Biotransformations

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Curmudgeon, Oct 24, 2016.

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  1. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Savant (1,110) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts
    BA4LYFE Society

    Telejunkie created a thread on an experiment he is performing related to this but I didn't want to hijack the thread as my question is more general concerning "fermentation hopping". I first came across this concept in Vikeman's Averagely Perfect NE IPA thread.

    I was looking at the recipes of the 2016 gold medal recipients, specifically at the hop additions. I see first wort hops, 60min through 0min hops, flameout/whirlpool hops and dry hops. I very likely could have missed one but I don't think any of them called for fermentation hopping. Is this practice extremely new? Do people still feel it promotes more negative results than positive? I just found it interesting that none of the winners' recipes mentioned it.
     
  2. Zonk

    Zonk Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2014 New Jersey

    I'm not sure it would be mentioned as anything other than (an early) dry hop.
     
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  3. telejunkie

    telejunkie Savant (1,107) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    Concept is fairly new to me…it was first introduced to me I believe on BA forum…maybe Jack Horzempa or Hopfenunmaltz pointing me to Peter Wolfe's dry hopping thesis from OSU. I interviewed Peter Wolfe who spelled out the concept to me and it was later reinforced during an interview with Matt Brynildson.

    I'm interested to see the results of this experiment. Brewed the beer yesterday (so missed going skiing) and everything went extremely smoothly with all 3 fermenters split evenly. All three fermenters were churning this morning, so expecting fermenter dry hops to go in by Tuesday night.
     
  4. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    I have been adding hops to the primary towards the end of active fermentation for maybe 3-4 years. I also add dry hops when the beer has cleared. I often do both.
     
  5. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Savant (1,110) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts
    BA4LYFE Society

    Interesting stuff. Looking forward to following your results, telejunkie. Thanks!

    hopfenunmaltz, what made you start doing that? Had you heard about biotransformations a while back or was it just through experimenting? Just curious. I'm a beginner brewer and have only read about the basic hopping techniques; FWH, boil hops, dry hopping for a week or so after fermentation, etc.
     
  6. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (0) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin

    I've also read it's only specific kinds of yeast that will do this biotransformation... British strains to be exact which is what it seems like a lot of the NE brewers are using.
     
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  7. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Talks at the NHC/HomebrewCon by Matt Brynildson and Stan Hieronymus, Get Stans book for the love of hops. Do searches for his articles.
     
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  8. Jesse14

    Jesse14 Initiate (0) Jul 21, 2011 Massachusetts

    JC Tetreault from Trillium mentioned it to me in an email exchange I had with him about 2 years ago. I've been doing it ever since.
    I do a day 3 addition and a day 7 addition and usually transfer on to hops in my serving keg on day 10. I feel like I hit all the possible benefits with that schedule.
     
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  9. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (0) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin

    Do you transfer to a keg to do your day 7 dry hop?
     
  10. Jesse14

    Jesse14 Initiate (0) Jul 21, 2011 Massachusetts

    Lately no. I'll just keep it in primary until day 10. I used to transfer to a dry hop keg but the extra effort did not yield any noticeable difference to me.
     
  11. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Initiate (0) May 29, 2011 Florida

    So 3 additions then? What about your kettle additions?
     
  12. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I too dryhopping at day 3 and day seven. This process is hop breed and yeast strain specific. I have been wanting to use Apollo as it contains the most of a specific oil that is susceptible to biotransformations.
     
  13. NeroFiddled

    NeroFiddled Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,276) Jul 8, 2002 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Hmmmm... I used to add hops to my fermenter regularly on day three or so, but at that point the primary fermentation was basically complete.
     
  14. Jesse14

    Jesse14 Initiate (0) Jul 21, 2011 Massachusetts

    I have been all over the place with kettle additions of late. I used to do the typical small FWH and then nothing until FO followed by a last addition at between 160 and 180 degrees. Lately, I've been keeping that general schedule but reducing the amounts for each and putting those quantities back into conventional boil additions such as 30 min, 15, 10, etc. My thoughts being to hit the wort at every stage possible. So far so good.
     
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  15. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    I'm not sure I buy the whole biotransformation koolaid...if you add a lot of hops in the kettle and in the keg and wait for the sweet spot, it's pretty hard to beat... and simpler, imho
     
  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

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  17. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Savant (1,110) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts
    BA4LYFE Society

    Thanks Jack!
     
  18. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Jack, what I find interesting is that for home brewers and a lot of commercial craft brewers, it seems there is still plenty of yeast in suspension for biotransformation to occur even if dry hopping in a keg.

    Also, in Hops by Hieronymous, p.195, "Ting explained that this flavor does not result simply from hydrolyzed glycosides but also from the subsequent bioconversion by yeast and perhaps even enzymes and microorganisms in the mouth."
     
  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Or equivalently in a bottle if the homebrewer chooses to bottle their beers.

    The unknown is whether active fermentation is required for this biotransformation process to occur. If this is indeed a necessary process then this biotransformation will occur in the homebrewer's bottled beers since the bottle conditioning process is a genuine fermentation process (a secondary fermentation).

    There is also the comment that @JohnConnorforealthistime made that biotransformation is yeast strain dependent.

    Lots of 'factors' going on here and based upon my readings to date the science is not completely settled on this topic.

    Cheers!
     
  20. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Do you have some references (i.e., links) that you can provide here?

    Cheers!
     
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