Germany Fernseh-Pils-a-thon 2013

Discussion in 'Europe' started by Gutes_Bier, May 7, 2013.

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  1. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (2,686) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania

    “the corresponding decline in quality.” Do you have an opinion on why the German breweries are ‘changing’ their beers such that there is a “decline in quality”? Do you think they are just ‘dumbing down’ the beers because the breweries think this is the type of beer that the consumers want to buy?

    Prost!
     
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  2. danfue

    danfue Initiate (0) Sep 16, 2012 Germany


    It's only a Pilsner world outside of Bavaria. The average beer consumed there on a daily basis would be a Helles.

    I think it will happen sooner or later. Things have been happening on the other side of the ocean for some time now and are happening in neighboring countries now. They are keeping an eye on the market. Most of the craft brewers round here are way too small to be worth buying them. So why not just copy them and sell them out this way. That might be the way their think tanks work. However, I'm kind of afraid about the idea of a "Bitburger IPA".
     
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  3. danfue

    danfue Initiate (0) Sep 16, 2012 Germany


    Well, most breweries were swallowed by bigger breweries in the 70s/80s which were then swallowed by international brewing companies in the 90s/00s. This business is not about producing a hand crafted quality product, it's simply about demand and supply. They just optimized their costs and realized people are still buying it more or less. When less became more they introduced mixed beers.

    On the other hand, when I talk about the "decline in quality", admittedly this is taken from hearsay. I'm simply not old enough to be able to judge that. But that's what you keep hearing from older people again and again. I.e., I was talking to a guy from near Munich some time ago (he was about in his 50s) and we were talking about beers (I was his bar tender and he kept drinking Maisels Weiße over and over). So when it came to Weißbier, I told him that Erdinger is my least favorite, it's just too artificially sweet. He agreed, but said, it was the best Weizen all around until about the early 80s. That's just one example.
     
  4. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (2,686) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania

    “This business is not about producing a hand crafted quality product, it's simply about demand and supply.” That was sort of my thought process. The breweries seem to think that the demand is for low priced pilsners that is lighter in flavor (lower IBUs) than the pilsners of the 70s/80s. If the amount of beer (pilsners) that is being purchased is declining from year to year:

    · Are the breweries perceptions of what the beer consumer’s demand incorrect?

    · If the breweries made beers other than low priced light flavored pilsners, would the beer consumers buy those beers?

    Cheers!
     
  5. danfue

    danfue Initiate (0) Sep 16, 2012 Germany

    There are several points as to why consumption has been going down. I read most threads about this on here, and they've been discussed before. Still, consumption has been going down on a high level, compared to other countries. Drinkers probably just adjusted to what they were offered. How long does it take for the average guy who goes out and buys a crate of the same ol' beer every fortnight to notice that something is changing in taste? How can a younger guy know that beer used to be better a few decades ago?
    So, the breweries have succeeded in declining the quality over the long haul. Other reasons for decline joined, like different drinking habits (there was/is a huge wine boom in Germany), focussing on teens and twens (>mixed beers), etc. I think, they might be wrong in perceiving their customers' demand in the future. But that's just the opinion of a beer freak who thinks that creating more bizarre mixed drinks and lemonades cannot be in their own interest in the long run.

    That's a tough one. Beer is a really cheap good here compared to other countries. Beer is officially still considered a food in Bavaria. Taxes are relatively low. So, you cannot expect a 180°-turn by one of the big brewers. But if one of them released a special new beer with the usual marketing and PR-hype that sells for € 1,49/bottle instead of € 0,89/bottle for their standard product, many people would try it, at least per bottle, not buying a crate at first. Offering it at such a price, will also be only be possible for the big companies. Offering something that goes at absurd prices, like many craft beers, no matter where from, has no chance. That's why I see a certain danger in the current craft scene. Many are just too expensive, and make it look like a very exclusive and elite product, bottling them in champagne bottles with a cork! That will be the wrong way to establish anything new.
     
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  6. Gutes_Bier

    Gutes_Bier Disciple (385) Jul 31, 2011 Germany

    One of the "big boys" of German brewing is trying, via Braufactum. I have no idea how well they sell, but they are marketed as upscale fancy beers and are priced accordingly. I bought a handful one time and was not so impressed as to pay the mark-up. I don't really see the point when you can get great beer here for €1,00 or less.

    Edit: according to Wikipedia, Braufactum is part of the Radeberger Group.
     
  7. einhorn

    einhorn Aspirant (289) Nov 3, 2005 California
    Beer Trader

    Personally I don't think there is necessarily a decline in quality, but rather more of a move to being non-offensive. Less IBUs, less aroma hops. Of course, some are using hop extract for bittering, which might be a cheaper alternative, but it is fairly accepted ingredient in the beer industry.
     
  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (2,686) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania

    “Personally I don't think there is necessarily a decline in quality, but rather more of a move to being non-offensive. Less IBUs, less aroma hops.”

    Doesn’t that mimic what happened with American beer from Prohibition to present day?

    Do you really think this is not a decline in beer quality?

    Cheers!
     
  9. einhorn

    einhorn Aspirant (289) Nov 3, 2005 California
    Beer Trader

    The quality is still OK, it's just become an Einheitsbrei (not sure how Google would translate that). Basically, it all tastes the same. And yes, I agree, this is what has happened to US macro lagers. I am only 47 so I don't know how things were around Prohibition, but I would guess that this can be traced back to the 60s & 70s when there was a very large consolidation of mid-sized breweries around the country.
     
  10. spartan1979

    spartan1979 Aspirant (295) Dec 29, 2005 Missouri


    It would depend on how you define "quality." Is less hops, less malt, a poorer quality beer? Even if the ingredients and process are of the same quality? If most drinkers prefer the less bitter, less malty beers, is that still a reduction of quality? Just because the brewer is moving away from the recipe you prefer, does that really mean less quality?
     
  11. Crusader

    Crusader Initiate (185) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden

    When one considers the per capita beer consumption of Germany and Czech Republic and contrast those to other countries the question that comes to mind is when are people finding the time to drink all of this beer (especially since the per capita figure is per capita, the average consumption of the average beer drinker is probably even higher if the non-drinkers are taken out of the equation)? In order to maintain such a high per capita consumption there needs to be a continuation of the traditions and customs which support them, such as regular drinking during the week in establishments or at home. If these customs change among the younger generations then it will be difficult to maintain the same level of consumption (unless people make up for it during weekend bouts). To me it it would seem logical to assume that there have been changes in the consumption habits among the younger generations and that this is impacting the level of consumption (along with competition from wine and spirits).

    In the face of these changing trends the brewers really have a limited set of options. They can't dictate the customs and habits of the population, but what they do have control over is the product they sell and the way that they sell it.

    On top of this there is probably also a matter of consumer tastes increasingly diverging, with some consumers disliking the taste of beer or prefering milder tasting beers. It would seem to me as if the breweries are making their beers milder in an attempt at catering to those consumers (successful or not) in the belief or hope that those changes wont be noticed by those who enjoy the taste of beer or a beer with a more distinct character and taste. I would liken this to a political party trying to sew together a winning coalition of voters by going after the voters in the middle, whilst counting on the continued loyalty of their traditional base. Remove the edges and present a package that offends noone, yet excites few. The obvious risk with this strategy is that both camps will lose interest in the product you are selling since the voters or consumers in the middle are fickle in their preferences, and lukewarm in their support for your product, whilst the traditional voter or consumer base might feel as though the product is all image, with little or no red-meat to excite them or warrant continued loyalty.

    Then again, both companies and parties alike strive towards going big and staying big, once they are at risk of losing that position they will be willing to adapt and change in order to maintain their position and status (though these adaptations and changes do not always result in success, and any successes might only be temporary).
     
    danfue likes this.
  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (2,686) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania

    “It would depend on how you define "quality." Yeah, verily!!

    There have been a number of long threads on BA discussing what the word “quality” means in the context of beer. Needless to say but there is no universally accepted definition of what defines a quality beer within the BA community. Some folks like to put forward the definition of quality of beer as the ability of the breweries to produce a consistent product; I personally refer to this as the manufacturing definition of quality. I personally do not subscribe to that definition for quality beer.

    My personal opinion on what constitutes a quality beer is: a quality beer is a tasty beer. I readily admit that this definition is a subjective definition.

    To the question of “Is less hops, less malt, a poorer quality beer?” my personal response would be that if by using less hops and/or less malt that the beer is no longer a tasty beer (this assumes the beer was tasty before the changes) then the beer is of poorer quality.

    “If most drinkers prefer the less bitter, less malty beers, is that still a reduction of quality? Just because the brewer is moving away from the recipe you prefer, does that really mean less quality?” Needless to say but based upon my above subjective definition the answers to these two questions would be that the beer has reduced/less quality.

    There is no absolute need for you to respond to my post. The debate over what defines a quality beer has resulted in threads with 100’s of posts. There is no required need to rehash that here.

    Cheers!
     
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  13. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (1,833) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    I found some Kaiserdom Pils locally yesterday and couldn't pass it up.

    The rDev on my review is pretty telling on the opinion of Pilsner style beers here at BA. I reviewed it as a good, not great, Pilsner and it looks like I could be one of the highest raters.

    BA members always seem to want to rate a beer in comparison to their favorite style, not to what a beer ought to be. This starts to sway and motivate "quality" to this majority that think all beers ought to be high octane and highly bittered. To that I say, embrace the diversity.
     
  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (2,686) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania

    Just throwing this out for discussion purposes. Maybe German Pilsners should be considered with the context of the European Beer Star Award guidelines?

    2) GermanStyle Pilsner

    Colour: light straw up to golden

    Hop bitterness: high

    Hop flavour and aroma: moderate, quite obvious

    Attenuation degree: high

    Body: medium to light

    Flavour and aroma: little residual sweetness

    No fruity esters or Diacetyl

    Dense and rich foam

    Beer is filtered

    No chill haze

    Analytics:

    Original gravity: 11.0 – 12.9 °Plato

    Apparent extract: 1.5 – 3.0 °Plato

    Alcohol: 3.6 – 4.2 % by weight, 4.0 – 5.0 % by volume

    Bitterness: 25 50 IBU

    Prost!
     
    boddhitree likes this.
  15. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    To Jack, if it's a question of taste, as in what one prefers, that's a different question. The Fernsehbiere have dumbed down the quality and hence costs of its ingredients, like using far cheaper hop extracts or poor quality malts. All of this is in the name of being still able to market its beer as RHG, which gives the gullible German consumer brainwashed by this myth a sense of security. So yea, it's a question of quality ingredients. All of this is in the quest of winning the lowest inthe beer price war.

    The "craft brewers" are the ones who use top qauality ingredients. The Bayern, Franken, or other small brewers who this must naturally charge a far higher price. And that's one reason Germany needs a craft beer renaissance, not just in discovering new flavors possible with beer, but also in an emphasis on quality, hand crafted beers with high-quality ingredients. Right now it's mostly in the tiny rural pockets of Franken and City of München where this is true. What needs to happen is that the willingness to pay more than 0.49€ for a half liter of beer requires a willingness to pay for craft quality ingredients outside these regions. it's gotta go to the rest of Germany.

    Also, still now in NYC… going home in 2 days. Don't worry, I've been tailing lots of notes of the beers I've drunk, and taken lots of pics. Will file report upon end of journey.
     
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  16. drtth

    drtth Poo-Bah (2,869) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania


    Fewer hops is not a decline in quality. Originally it was a response to changing tastes in the beer buying public. That change in popular tastes in the US was evident well before prohibition and simply resumed after prohibition. The fact that the change results in a beer you consider less flavorful does not mean that quality has declined. It just means you have different tastes than the majority. Your personal definition of quality does not constitute a standard.
     
    steveh likes this.
  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (2,686) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania

    I agree 100% with your statement of “Your personal definition of quality does not constitute a standard.” I posted:

    · “ …there is no universally accepted definition of what defines a quality beer within the BA community.”

    · “My personal opinion on what constitutes a quality beer is: a quality beer is a tasty beer. I readily admit that this definition is a subjective definition.”

    I am simply just articulating my personal opinion on this matter

    Cheers!
     
  18. Gutes_Bier

    Gutes_Bier Disciple (385) Jul 31, 2011 Germany

    Did someone say Pilsner?!?! Oh wait, right, I did...I started the thread. I thought about posting this as it's own thread but ultimately decided that this is a general Pilsner thread at this point, and it fit technically if not thematically.

    Tonight: Battle Pilsner, Heavyweight Division!

    [​IMG]

    My wife very nicely helped with a blind pour for the small price of me splitting the beers with her. The first thing you notice (sorry for the lack of pix) is that these two beers look exactly alike. Straw color, fluffy white head, streaming carbonaton. Exactly the same.

    Beer A has a very familiar German hops aroma. Right up in your face. I smile at the familiar smell of Rothaus. What can I say, I've had a bunch of them before. Beer B is much more subtle. I can get hardly anything on the aroma. My wife's experience is exactly the opposite. Ditto taste. I'm just getting more out of my beloved Beer A. Once again, my wife's opinion is opposite, preferring Beer B. As we continue down our 300 ml pokals, and I'm being won over to her side. Beer B does have a very nice hoppiness that hits you in the middle, whereas Beer A is all up front. Beer B seems very balanced in comparison, and reminds in a small way of my current flame the Wilderer Dunkel. Not so much in taste, but in the interplay of the hops and malt, the beery hide-and-seek. It's really quite nice. Still, I'm lovin' Beer A every time I go back to it. I finish Beer A and die Frau finishes Beer B. And then she lays it on me: I was wrong. Beer A was Weihenstephaner's Pils and Beer B was Rothaus. Whoa. Surprises never cease.

    Weihenstephaner Pils: 4.25/5.00
    Rothaus Tannenzäpfle Pils: 4.25/5.00

    Call it a draw, but not just a draw - a very good reminder of how good Pils can be.

    Cheers.
     
    Hutfabrik, Beric, einhorn and 4 others like this.
  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (2,686) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania

    “Surprises never cease.” Yeah, blind tasting is really the way to go!

    Thanks for conducting that experiment and reporting on it. I have a Rothaus Tannenzäpfle Pils sitting in my refrigerator (courtesy of boddhitree) that I hope to drink real soon. I have had Weihenstephaner Pils many times but only on draft. Weihenstephaner Pils is indeed a well-made and tasty beer.

    Prost!
     
    Gutes_Bier likes this.
  20. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    Just got back to Germany today. Man, I gots lots to write up, maybe more than 25+ beers. There were Pils and a Helles, thanks for contribution Jack! I also drank almost my weight in IPAs in 2 weeks. I'm going to write them all up from my notes some time in a new thread, though y'all could help me by thinking up a witty name for the thread, and post them... all with pics. The main thrust of the thread is "American comes home from 5 years to evaluate IPAs and American Pils from a German Pils-drinking filter," so you see I need help in naming the thread.

    Jack, I hope you weren't waiting for me to get back before you drank the Tannenzäpfle. If you don't drink it soon, I'll be forced to back come over and take it from you. ;) I'm looking forward to hearing if you taste any difference, which I doubt, to a "fresh" Pils. By the way, Jack is really nice, helpful, friendly guy. Do yourself a favor and look him up if you're in Philadelphia. Also, I only took pics of the beers we drank and not him, and vice versa, I think, to keep his anonymity intact. Maybe we coulda, shoulda taken a pic together, but I figure, if folks want their mug on BA, they'll post it themselves.
     
    Gutes_Bier likes this.
  21. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (2,686) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania

    “I also drank almost my weight in IPAs” Wow! That is a ton of beer!!:eek:

    Just kidding, Tony!

    “Jack, I hope you weren't waiting for me to get back before you drank the Tannenzäpfle.” No, I just haven’t got round to it yet. I am contemplating doing a side-by- side tasting of Tannenzäpfle and Troegs Sunshine Pils. Do you think that is a proper thing to do?

    Cheers!

    P.S. I attended the National Homebrewers Conference this past weekend and Round Guys (a Philly area craft brewery) gave out free cans of a German Pilsner brewed solely with Cluster hops. I have not drunk that beer yet but that looks to be an ‘interesting’ beer.

    P.S.S I look forward to reading your ‘reports’ from your recent vacation!
     
  22. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    Almost true.
    Sure, as long as it won't kill you. And then report back to us how they tasted.

    Cheers!
    Please report.
     
  23. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (2,686) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania


    “Please report.”

    I will certainly report on the various Pilsner beers. It may not happen for a while. Over the past three days (at the NHC) I drank a lot of great beer (mostly homebrewed but some great commercial beers as well). I think I need to ‘dry out’ a few days.:oops:

    Prost!
     
  24. Gutes_Bier

    Gutes_Bier Disciple (385) Jul 31, 2011 Germany

    I kinda like your title! I'm also not good at this sort of thing, but I nominate "Re-IPAtriation"
     
  25. Gutes_Bier

    Gutes_Bier Disciple (385) Jul 31, 2011 Germany

    Yes! And as Boddhitree says, please report back. I'm looking forward to your thoughts on the Rothaus, and on how it compares to the locals.
     
  26. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    Snapped this pic in the local REWE supermarket, which is across the strew from my apt. Yuck, eh?
    :(. I'd never seen the 3 "Biermix" drinks before. Maybe I hadn't even bothered to look, but today I did, and I'm depressed that's all they could come with - a tired, failing strategy to lure young'uns and women with stuff that has no resemblance to beer at all. The Beck's Gold is also a very weak beer.

    Notice the prices. 3.99€/six-pack, which works out to 0.66€/bottle for 0.5L bottles. A case of 24 would be 15.96€, or 0.66€/bottle again. Jever today was at 0.89€/bottle. Interesting prices, eh?
    [​IMG]
    Please don't ask me to drink or try these mix-drink concoctions. I'll refuse.
     
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  27. Gutes_Bier

    Gutes_Bier Disciple (385) Jul 31, 2011 Germany

    I think the Beck's products are fairly new. I've been seeing a lot of them recently in my local Kaufland as well.
     
  28. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (1,833) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Is it somewhat odd that the labels are in English? Orrr... is this dreck being imported from St. Louis now? o_O

    2.5 ABV?
     
  29. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    Very observant… English gives them a "cool" factor that's supposed to differentiate them from Opa's (Gran-pappy's) brews, I think. It's a play to the youth, women and upscale markets, both of which are fleeing beer for (youth & women) Red Bull/Vodka mixes or the like, or (women & upscale) wine.

    2.5% is to keep the appeal to the women & upscale folks, I think, for any wino on the street wouldn't waste his time buying something with so little alcohol. Besides, then women can drink it outdoors on a hot summer day like we would a session beer.
     
  30. Gutes_Bier

    Gutes_Bier Disciple (385) Jul 31, 2011 Germany

    Germany will often keep a proper name in its original language*. I wonder if these beers were created/named by an English speaker (i.e., American)? If you'll notice, the top half of the sixer is in German. Or it is pure marketing as Boddhitree suggests. I could see either case being true.

    * - I can't think of a better example**, but TV shows and movies will often have the original language name and then a German name, like "Scrubs - der Anfänger".

    ** - not sure this is example is "better", but at the McDonald's down the street from me, a cheeseburger is called a cheeseburger and not "Hackfleisch mit Käse und Brotchen", which it might be called if it were a German invention. If I want two cheeseburgers, I'll say "Zwei Cheeseburgers, bitte". French Fries, however, are Pommes. So what do I know.
     
    boddhitree likes this.
  31. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    First, you go to McDs? :p I frequent a few Döner kebab places, especially one that prepares and spices its own mutton spits on site daily.

    Your examples illustrate my point exactly. Who do Scrubs and McDs appeal to most? The former: young women, and latter: kids and teens, and parents thereof. Around the world, be it Japan, Turkey or Germany, English is marketers' shortcut to denote hip- and coolness without having to try hard, even if no one in the target country has a clue what the English words mean… believe me, I've lived in those 3 countries, Japan being the worst offender here, and it's a fact of life where English is a non-native language.

    Ask 100 Germans what "twisted" means in German and I bet you'd get only 4 or 6 correct answers. Tell them it means verdreht, as in a "twisted meaning" and you get eye-rolls and giggles.

    There's another point you subtly made. Often, the native language equivalent either doesn't exist, and/or is too weird to use. Take the word "Craft beer," which is now being used in Germany exactly like in America b/c 1) there is no direct German equivalent that conveys the same meaning, 2) since craft translates to roughly "hand-work" or "hand-made" if you used Handarbeitbier, it doesn't convey the same meaning, which leads to 3) Handarbeitbier sounding dumb, weird and nonsensical in German. It also makes sense to use Craftbeer in German because Kraftbier would translate to "Power-beer" or "electricity-beer," hence they use the C in Craft beer. It also gives it a cool factor that beer today in Germany has lost to Vodka and Red Bulls.
     
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  32. Gutes_Bier

    Gutes_Bier Disciple (385) Jul 31, 2011 Germany

    Yes, but Döner is also in my lexicon, as is the fast food chicken sandwich place. I keep a nice rotation. :D

    This is well said, and I also wonder if the English language helps them differentiate regular Beck's to the tradition loving German consumer base (i.e, English being a subtle warning to the regular Beck's Pils consumer that this is not what (s)he wants to buy).

    I saw this once and found it funny. Some TV channel interviewing Georg Schneider and the English phrase "Craft Beer" was definitely used amongst the German. I have seen Handwerk used in a context meaning something hand-crafted, but never in application to beer or independent beer makers. Most likely because it is not literallyHandwerk, and those Germans can be rather literal sometimes.
     
    boddhitree likes this.
  33. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (1,833) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    I've seen that, and understand the concept -- but it's Beck's, German ought to be it's original language... shouldn't it? :D

    I have a German made coat that was made by the something-or-other Jean Co. Always found it odd that there was no translation for jeans. ;)

    Yeah, I saw the other parts of the labels too.
     
  34. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (1,833) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    That's a good theory.
     
  35. danfue

    danfue Initiate (0) Sep 16, 2012 Germany


    I bought a mixed six-pack of Bayreuther today, and they actually call it handwerklich gebraut. Hey, and in reference to your pic of the Beck's six-packs for € 3.99 - this one was € 4.99 and it's 0.5l-bottles and proper beer.

    [​IMG]
     
  36. danfue

    danfue Initiate (0) Sep 16, 2012 Germany


    I think they have been around for a few years, but are more heavily marketed during summer.
     
  37. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (1,833) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Do they package for FedEx? :D
     
  38. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    Aktien Zwick'lbier, Landbier and the Original 1857, all from Bayreuther Brauerei, from, are some decent beers. I've had their Zwickel and Landbier, which I liked a lot. I know of only 1 pub in FFM which has it. I've also ordered it from bierzwerg.de. Where did you get it?
     
  39. danfue

    danfue Initiate (0) Sep 16, 2012 Germany


    They seem to be expanding a lot lately. I've even seen their crates of the Zwickl in my local REWE (!!) in Wiesbaden. Apart from that, at least two bottle shops near me got them. I got that box from Trinkgut in Wiesbaden-Biebrich, they also have the Bayreuther Hell and Weissbier, both from the same brewery, but different brand.

    EDIT: The other shop would be Getränke Spezialisten in Wiesbaden-Bierstadt. They also always carry Schlenkerla Märzen, Weizen, Urbock and Lager!
     
  40. Stahlsturm

    Stahlsturm Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2005 Germany

    The tradition loving German consumer base has long walked on Beck's.
     
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