Few questions on starters, fermentation temps, and chloromine

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by redmaw, Mar 19, 2016.

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  1. redmaw

    redmaw Initiate (0) Jun 30, 2013 Pennsylvania

    I have brewed a few batches, but I am still trying new things, which leads me to a few questions:

    I recently acquired an old fridge and a temperature controller. I am planning on using this to brew a bock-ish beer. I picked up a vial of WLP833, but this will be my first time brewing with a lager yeast. I understand you normally need a pretty large started for lagers, and started a two stage starter today (1 quart, planning on stepping to 4). So my question is should the starter be made at room temp or at fermentation temp?

    Second, as stated above, I have no experience with WLP833. Can anyone suggest a temperature range? Also the vial says to pitch at 70 degrees and hold it there until there is active fermentation, that doesn't sound right to me, is that correct?

    Third, My water supply just changed from one that used chlorine for water treatment to one that uses chloromine. I understand chloromine does not boil out and should be removed with campden tablets. Unfortunately I forgot about this when I was ordering ingredients. My local homebrew store doesn't appear to carry campden tablets but does have powdered potassium metabisulfite. Is this the same thing?

    Finally, is it ok to lager 5 gallons of beer in a 7 gallon bucket with an airlock? it seems to me aging like that will be detrimental from an oxidation perspective. I don't have another container available. I was thinking about just skipping the lager phase, or bottling and leaving them cold for a few weeks, then bringing them up to room temp to carbonate.

    Incase it effects your answer my recipe for this beer is :

    10 lbs vienna
    3 lbs pilsner
    1 lb caramel munich (not sure if i will use the whole pound yet)

    Mash around 154 for 90 minutes

    I have three ounces of hersbrucker probably add 1 each at 60 15 and 5.

    Brewcipher suggested something like 30 - 45 days lagering (I forget and don't have it on this computer).
     
  2. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    You should produce your starter at room temperature since that will encourage yeast growth (propagation).
    The recommended fermentation temperature range for this strain is 48 - 55 degrees F. Since you are making a large (two stage) starter you should pitch at these temperatures vs. 70 degrees F. You should cold crash your starter by placing in in your refrigerator and decant the liquid from the starter prior to pitching the yeast slurry.
    Campden tablets can be made from potassium metabisulfate. I recommend you read this: https://www.morebeer.com/articles/removing_chloramines_from_water
    Yeah, lagering in a bucket which is larger than the beer amount is not ideal. I personally would recommend that you bottle your beers once primary fermentation is complete, permit the beers to bottle condition for a few weeks at room temperature, and then lager the bottles. I personally bulk lager my lagers in a 5 gallon carboy but lagering in the bottles should 'work' in an equivalent manner.

    Good luck with your lager beer!

    Cheers!
     
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  3. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Greg Noonan published rules of thumb for lagering duration in his book The New Lager Beer book. Below is something I posted previously:

    “MLucky quoted a popular rule of thumb of "one week per 2 degrees Plato". I should state up front that this is the rule that I personally follow for lagering my beers.

    Below is an extract of an article that Bill Pierce wrote for BYO magazine. As you will read the above rule of thumb is part of a ‘series’ of rules from Greg Noonan (author of the book “New Brewing Lager Beer”).

    “How long to lager is a matter of some discussion. Light American lagers are typically held near freezing for 10–20 days, while some strong German doppelbocks are lagered as long as six months. For medium to high-gravity beers, Greg Noonan — brewpub owner and author of “New Brewing Lager Beer” (1996, Brewers Publications) — recommends 7–12 days per each 2 °Plato of original gravity. (One degree Plato is roughly equal to 4 specific gravity “points.”). For lower gravity lagers the time is reduced to 3–7 days. According to those guidelines, a 1.064 O.G. German bock should be lagered for 56–96 days, while a 1.040 American lager would be lagered 15–35 days.”

    So, as you can read above there is some flexibility in selecting a lagering time for your beer. For example, to lager a 12P (1.048) beer you could lager on the shorter end of the duration: 3 x 6 = 18 days.”

    I recently read a Beer Experiment on how long it takes to produce a lager beer which has me wondering: http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

    Cheers!
     
  4. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    In addition to the good advice offered above, I throw out these tidbits:
    1. A lager starter should be a few degrees less than an ale starter, 66-72 is a sweet spot. I say this because where I live room temp is 80F.
    2. I hope your not guessing on the step-starter sizes . . . a yeast calculator is a lot of help here.
    3. Some sources recommend the 70 pitch temp to minimize lag time. This may result in more diacetyl. I prefer to pitch one or two degrees below target temp and let active fermentation raise the wort temp.
    4. I still like to do a diacetyl rest. Ideally when the gravity is within a couple of points of finishing I raise the temp 8 - 10 degrees (over a couple of days). Typically this is around day 5 after I've taken a gravity reading. The idea is to keep the yeast active to break down any nasty diacetyl.
    5. Don't be surprised with a long lag time, even when pitching a large amount of healthy yeast . . . 18 hours is the norm for me. Expect a very thin krausen ring (maybe an inch above the wort), all normal with bottom working yeast.
    6. Do not skip the lagering phase. A keg would be ideal. If you're on the fence on kegging, now is the time to take the plunge. If no keg or 5 gal carboy, then bottling is probably your next best option. I would let them carbonate fully before dropping the temp for lagering. It's always better to lager too long than the opposite.
    Unrelated, but suggest you give your ferm fridge a good test run before it sees any precious wort. Good luck and it would be nice if you did a follow up post in about 2 months.
     
    #4 PortLargo, Mar 19, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2016
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  5. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I recently got the equipment to control my temps, and put water in my fermenter for a test run. I highly recommend doing this prior to actually using fermenting beer to experiment with. God forbid your fridge takes a crap 5 days in, or you don't quite understand how to set up your controller.
     
  6. redmaw

    redmaw Initiate (0) Jun 30, 2013 Pennsylvania

    Thanks for the replies. I already brewed an ale with temp control set in the upper 50's. So I think I have the controller worked out, and the fridge does in fact work. No matter what testing I do though I guess I still run the risk of it crapping out 5 days in.

    Well I guess there are some advantages to living in the north. It was 34 outside when I woke up this morning, so my living room is in the 66-72 sweet spot. Also I used the starter calculator included in Vikeman's brewcypher, modified slightly for available containers.
     
  7. redmaw

    redmaw Initiate (0) Jun 30, 2013 Pennsylvania

    So I brewed this beer a couple of weeks ago, it went pretty smoothly. I got better efficiency than I calculated for, and ended up with a post-boil OG of 1.070 as opposed to the predicted 1.065. My current gravity is 1.019 versus the predicted 1.015, so I think I'm pretty close, if not at FG. I raised the temp in the fridge to 60, but I am guessing I'm to late for an actual diacetyl rest. I'm no sure I would recognize diacetyl, but I tasted the gravity sample, and it was pretty good. A little more yeasty than I hoped for, but I assume that will clean up.

    So I guess if the gravity doesn't move by friday, it's into the bottles for a few weeks of carbing, and then into the fridge for a lager phase.
     
  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    As long as you have yeast and suspected diacetyl precursor (α-acetolactate), it's not too late for a diacetyl rest. The rest would also accelerate the last bit of attenuation if there's some left to be had.
     
  9. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    If you don't have Campden tablets, or prefer not to use them, you can always use ascorbic acid (vitamin C) instead to remove chlorine or chloramine. It can be purchased in powder form and it is fairly cheap (on a per-batch basis, it is virtually costless). More information here (search for "ascorbic").
     
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