Finishing with 3711

That's a surprising result. I have one that I used 3 oz Summer at FO and another where I used 2 oz Saaz at FO and they're distinctly different beers, hops being the only difference between them.

 

Just some 'data points' from my homebrewing experiences.

I did a batch last year where I mashed at 149F for 90 minutes; the OG was 1.050 and FG was 1.008

I brewed another of the same batch this year where I mashed at 152F (because of the Greg Doss results) for 90 minutes, the OG was 1.050 and FG was 1.012.

FWIW, I achieved more fermentability with a mash at 149F vs. 152F for this particular beer.

When I rebrew this beer next year I will mash at the lower temperature (149F).

Cheers!

 

Just took my first hydrometer reading on the saison I brewed last weekend. 89% aa (1.049 OG down to 1.005 SG) in just 7 days with ecy08 (rated up to 80% aa) after a 70 minute mash @ 145F

Now here is the rub. I attempted to do a direct fired rims step up to mash out. The wort being pulled off of the bottom of the mlt and dropped back in the top was ramped up to 168 over the course of 13 minutes and then held at 168F for another 18 minutes. However, the overall mlt temp only raised from 145F to 158F in that time. So I don't know if this mash was really "mashed out" or if it was stepped up to ideal alpha amylase range?

If the former, then I did a 70 minute mash in beta range, 13 minute mash in alpha, and 18 minute mash out.

If the latter, then I did a 70 minute mash in beta range, a 31 minute mash in alpha range, plus an additional x amount of minutes in alpha range while collecting my runnings and adding 170F sparge water until reaching denaturing temps.

Now I know it only takes a few minutes at a high enough temperature to denature alpha and beta amylase, but my mlt space under the false bottom probably only fits 0.25 gallons of wort, so I'd think the pump would be drawing it out very quickly. I have a ball lock on the feed side of the pump and I do restrict the flow quite a bit, but still I'm guessing the wort under the false bottom must be drained in no more than 1 minute tops (if that).

 

Sorry that should read "ball lock on the flow out side of the pump" which is the feed side of my sparge arm.

 

I'm just a noob but this is an interesting conversation and I thought I'd share my experience with a long mash at lower temp. I did a pilsener/Vienna/wheat/sugar syrup based saison recently - mashed at 148 for 90 minutes and fermented with 3711. Somehow my efficiency went way up from my standard efficiency but I also experienced very high attenuation. It went from 1.086 down to 1.005 - 93.6% aa by my calculations. It's bone dry.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience!

All things being equal, my take would be as follows....

First and foremost, 3711 is a beast of an attenuator and substituting simple sugar for some malt always helps!

Generally speaking, a higher mash temperature encourages better extraction by favoring the cleaving action of alpha amylase which breaks more starches down overall into pieces small enough to dissolve into the wort. A lower mash temperature will cause the extraction to suffer because the alpha action will be slowed down a bit. However, increasing the length of that cooler mash helps compensate for the potential extraction efficiency loss due to lower alpha amylase activity. Namely, by giving both alpha amylase and beta amylase more time to work.

So by doing a longer mash at the cooler temperature, you accomplish the following:

1. Encourage more beta amylase activity from the start (favoring better attenuation)

2. Allow the alpha amylase extra time to cleave chains which compensates for the reduction in alpha amylase activity you gave up in favor of encouraging more beta activity. (increasing extraction and setting the stage for potentially better attenuation)

3. Allow the beta amylase extra time (coupled with it's enhanced activity due to the colder mash temp) to further reduce chains that took longer for alpha amylase to cleave due to the colder mash temperature. (increasing attenuation)

 

For anybody following along who might be interested, I racked my saison off of the yeast cake today (13 days into primary) as it's down to 1.003 (94% aa). I also spoke to my brew school professor about the "rub" and he mentioned that denaturing doesn't take long at all (typically a matter of seconds rather than minutes) and that the temperature is the dominating factor. So he's of the opinion that the RIMS mash out I did where the runnings were pulling off of the bottom of the kettle @ 168F while the kettle thermometer itself failed to get up to mash out temperature still managed to denature the enzymes after enough circulation. So it looks like (at least with this brew) a 70 minute mash @ 145F, a 13 minute ramp up in alpha amylase favoring temperature range, and an 18 minute mash out produced 94% aa with ECY08 with a recipe using 9.5% sugar and a starting gravity of 1.049 OG. Heck it might have even gone a bit further if I gave it more time. Either way it's the best attenuation I've got to date without bugs/brett. Not bad for a yeast strain rated by the manufacture to attenuate "up to 80%"

 

I brewed a Saison last summer using ECY08. The OG was 1.058 and the FG was 1.006 for an Apparent Attenuation of 89%.

More importantly (to me) that beer was very, very tasty. I am a BIG fan of ECY08! I still have a couple of 6 packs of that brew that I am savoring.

Last week I asked my LHBS (Keystone Homebrewing in Montgomeryville, PA) if they could get ECY08 for me. The employee that I spoke to (Eric) educated me that Keystone has reached out to East Coast Yeast (Al Buck) several times to obtain his yeast but he doesn't respond to their requests. I had a chance to speak to Al for about 30 minutes at NHC 2013 (he is a very smart and personable guy!). I was really hoping that since he decided to quit his 'day job' and make yeast full time that distribution of East Coast Yeast would widen but I am guessing that he is really busy supplying commercial breweries?

Anyway, ECY08 is a GREAT Saison yeast strain.

I hope that your Saison will be tasty!

Cheers!

 

Might have to try the ECY08.. I did one recently with ECY14 that got really dry, but I also used flaked corn in the grist, mashed low-ish, and let it ride out.

I bottled a little, and funked up with the rest with some Brett Brux, and some wild dregs from Wicked Weed Serenity. It's getting pretty nice, and even a little tart now.

 

I brewed many batches with the BrewTek version of ECY14 (BrewTek CL-380). What I enjoyed most about that yeast strain was the subtle beauty of the resulting beer. BrewTek would describe the flavor profile from CL-380 as being: “…with mild yet pleasant esters and flavors reminiscent of apple pie spices.”

The above description was consistent with the Saison beers that I brewed with CL-380: pleasantly fruity with subdued phenols.

ECY08 has it all: plenty of esters and plenty of penols. A smorgasbord of flavors!

Cheers to Al Buck!

 

@psnydez86

As an interesting follow up to this, I was just reading my Blichmann Boilermaker Owners Handbook (since one of my kettles just developed several rust spots on the kettle bottom and I wanted to review any warranty info) and found this passage...

"Manipulating the mash temperature between the two amylase regions (beta and alpha) allows the brewer to customize the wort in terms of its fermentability. A lower mash temperature, ideally 150°F, yields a thinner bodied, drier beer. A higher mash temperature, ideally 158°F, yields a less fermentable, sweeter beer. A rest at both of these temperatures, or a single rest at an intermediate temperature (152-156°F) will yield a medium bodied beer. This step is where a brewer
can really fine-tune a wort to best produce a particular style of beer."

Now of course he lists no references so take the claim fwiw, but that seams to suggest the 2 step approach will not increase fermentability and that, as my education and my personal experience has suggested, favoring beta amylase is the way to go when looking for the most fermentable wort possible.