First Time Lager

Thank you for correcting my understanding.

So, the ONLY advantage to a longer mash is not the conversion, but the degree of fermentability, and generally, the greater the fermentability, the drier the beer. Thus no need for me to change the 1-1/4 hour mash, since I prefer a drier finish.

 

Essentially, yes, the really important impact is to fermentability.

I suspect the mash length may also affect proteins to a small degree, as well as extraction of tannins and flavor compounds.

 

I step mash every beer. Different regimes for different beers depending on ingredients and what not. I definitely get an increase in gravity by about 1-1.5* Plato with a mashout rest at 168-172 for about 10 minutes. The mash has generally been going for about 75-90 minutes by then and recirculating the whole time with the previous step at 162 for 20-30 minutes. Gravity always increases from the end of the 162 step to the end of the mashout step.

 

I have also noticed better foam doing this.

 

This got me to thinking. Typically, you mash for an hour, then do a mash-out by raising the temperature to about 170 F in order to stop all of the enzyme activity (and making the wort more fluid). If enzyme activity continues until the 170 F temperature has been reached, then why do a mash-out at all? It will reach that temperature during the boil, so couldn't you just stop the mash early, drain it, and bring it to a boil? You could subtact the time it takes to drain it and bring it to a boil from the length of mash. So if it takes 20 minutes, couldn't you just mash for 40 minutes, drain and bring it to a boil? That way the enzymes continue working for the full hour. The only downside would be the fluidity of the mash, but if you are already using a reasonably high water to grain ratio, this shouldn't affect the draining.

 

Yes, you could do it this way. Lots of people do. The downside, as you already know, is a stickier runoff. No matter how thin your ratio is, the wort will be less viscous at ~170F than it is at mash temp, so efficiency will be impacted to some degree. Whether or not it's significant enough for you is a personal decision. Also, bringing everything to ~170F all at once is a very repeatable process. Bringing wort to a boil (or to a particular on-the-way-to-a-boil temp) in exactly "X" minutes isn't, particularly if you boil outdoors.

 

The problem with trying to bring the mash to 170 in a 10 gallon cooler when doing a mash for a 10-gallon brew, is that there is not enough room left in the cooler to add enough boiling water to bring it even close to 170 F (usually can only add about 5 liters of boiling water - not even close to being able to bring the other 31 or 32 liters of mash at about 150 F, up to 170 F). With a five gallon brew, it is possible.

 

A friend would pull a decoction, mainly liquid. It worked.

 

Yes, this would be possible, but if you were doing a decoction, you would have to draw the mash out after no longer than about 20 minutes into the mash. It would take about 25 minutes to bring it up to boiling (at least on a stove) and another 15 minutes at least of boiling.

On the other hand, one could just drain a couple of quarts a half hour before the mash is complete, just bring that to a boil, and add it back to the mash at the one hour mark (assuming you're mashing for one hour), along with the portion of the sparge water that will just fill up the cooler (about 5 liters).

 

Let me be more clear. You were talking about getting to mashout with a full mash run. At the end of mash, he went 60 minutes, he pulled enough of the liquid by draining off to leave the solids behind, brought it to a boil quickly. It wasn't that much, there are calculators online to estimate the volume. Boiling liquid went on top and was stirred in. Mash came up to mashout temps, he did this just about every time. Rest, start the sparge.

This is just the liquid, no need to boil for 15 or 30 minutes.

 

My issue is both maintaining temperature during the mash and in raising it to 168 afterwards. I could use the same method by draining enough liquid from the mash after about 20 minutes, boiling it, and adding it to the end of the mash. It would require about 12 liters in total. About half of that could just be boiled water, since I have enough room in the cooler for about 6 liters.

 

A lot of good information here....

I love lagers, brew them regularly.

I'd start with a Vienna, find a Sam Adams clone recipe.

Diacetyl rests are cheap insurance, I routinely do them because I tend to bounce around trying different yeasts and unless you're familiar with their characteristics, a diacetyl rest will give you one less thing to worry about. Or learn how to do a diacetyl test, its fairly simple and works from my experience. Google it, you'll find instructions, you may even find them in this forum.

Lastly, I find my lagers hit their peak flavor profile around 5-6 weeks of lagering, so be patient. Lager as cold as you can for as long as you can, it makes a difference.

 

Odd, I've often read about the advantages of lagering for 5-6 weeks, but for some reason seem to prefer my lagers as fresh as possible. So even a week of lagering (waiting for the right amount of carbonation) seems plenty. If I let it lager for 5-6 weeks, the taste seems to begin to go off, the longer it sits in the keg (not in terms of getting infected, but in terms of losing that "freshness" that European lagers seem to have).

 

It sounds like you're describing oxidation.

 

That's very possible, since I don't use the extreme oxidation-free type of brewing process, but I do try to prevent it as much as possible using the common way. Perhaps even that is not enough.

The lager seems to get more of that off-taste, the longer it stays carbonized.

 

Do what you like to drink. I like Dunkle but that's just me. I will suggest using Fermentis 34/70 dry yeast it works very well.