floor malted pils and decoction

I used this grain 1x, with a double decoction. I used beersmith to help with the calculations. I have no basis for saying decoction mattered to the final outcome, although I really loved the beer. If you are the sort of person who really digs process, then decoct. I you are the sort of person who cuts corners, then don't decoct. I promise you I won't judge.

 

I used Beersmith . . . then added 50 percent to the amount to be 'cocted. I believe @inchrisin is this forum's Decocter Emeritus, you might see if he'll jump in.

 

I love these rare decoction forums.

I typically try to do a single-infusion mash. I've never hit my mash step temps decocting. I'll constantly pull a higher and higher percent of the required mash from the tun. I'm usually still shy by a few degrees. It's a very frustrating way to spend 6 hours of my day off. I'd have some extra hot water and not be afraid to thin the mash out as you step up. I hope you like stirring.

In my experiences with Oktoberfest beers you can make great ones by just doing a single-infusion mash. You can make great ones boiling down your first runnings, as you might with a Shilling Ale, and you can sneak in a little melanoidin malt, and tell everyone that you did a decoction. Just don't make it cloyingly sweet and I'll be over for a pint.

 

Firstly, you didn't specify the grain you're using. Floor malted Pils? Odd.

As a professional I've done both decoction and straightforward mashing using Durst Pils (as well as some others) for multiple styles and never really found a solid, discernible difference in the final product.

Given that you're doing a Märzen I'd doubt that the character of the Pilsner malt can over-ride the Munich malt. I wouldn't bother with a decoction mash.

 

Weyermann makes a floor malted "bohemian" pils malt.

 

I think what you need to know is how modified your malt is. From what I have read you should not use highly modified malt for decoction mashing. Good luck!

 

If you go through the Weyermann site, and look at the right place, you will find that the Floor Malted Pils has a Kohlbach index >38 and therefore decoction is not needed. You can do it if you want.

 

I use the Weyermann Pilsner malt all the time to make pilsners, and it's not at all necessary to do a decoction with it - with almost all of my pilsners I used a single diffusion and I always got complete conversion. The Weyerman malt is modified enough to do a single diffusion.

However, I always felt that something was "lacking" in my pilsners compared to German and Czech Pilsners. I finally discovered that what was lacking (for my taste) is melanoidin. The Europeans use decoction mashing and this results in some meloidins. A single decoction does not provide any meloidin that I'm aware of, so IMO, it will never produce a great pilsner. To overcome this, I then started adding a very small amount of meloidin malt to my grain bills (don't use too much - it is quite strong) and the pilsners improved greatly. It's actually the meloidin that makes me crave pilsners most.

For my last Pilsner, I used a single decoction mash without adding any meloidin malt, just to see if there would be much difference. The decoction took many, many more hours than a single defusion, and I was not able to achieve the right temperatures without resorting to doing some diffusion as well (always pull much more grain than any calculator tells you to pull). The result was even better than adding melanoidin malt, but it was still a little shy of the amount of meloidin that I like. So next time, I will either still try a decoction but add a little meloidin malt as well, or do a double decoction and not add any melanoidin malt. I prefer the melanoidins created during decoction over using meloidin malt, since it provides a much more complex flavour, aproaching those of European pilsners.

Oddly the importance of melanoidin in Pilsners is rarely mentioned (except sometimes indirectly by suggesting that a decoction should be used). However, for me, the greatest challenge of making a good pilsner is to get the right balance of melanoidin. After many attempts, I have succeeded getting the right balance with adding just the right amount of melanoidin malt, but have not yet succeeded with getting the right balance using the decoction process. That is my next challenge.

 

As mentioned, a step mash is not required and will not really add much. So a single infusion mash should be sufficient. If you prefer to do a multi-step mash, then a decoction mash will give much better results than a step mash. If adding melanoidin malt, 0.3 lb should be just about right. Later you can adjust either higher or lower according to your own preferences.

 

Jason,

I recently brewed an 1896 Michelob beer using 100% Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner malt and I conducted a single temperature infusion mash and that worked out well for this beer.

I am assuming that you will also be using Munich Malt to brew your Oktoberfest. The Munich Malt will provide plenty of melanoidin character to the resulting beer. There is really no need to add Melanoidin Malt to you grain bill if you are brewing an Oktoberfest beer.

Cheers!

Jack

 

Jack is right - when I said to add melanoidin, I was strictly referring to classic pilsners.

 

The Weyermann website lists the usage rate as "up to 20%". What amounts have you tried and what were your results?

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/weyermann-melanoidin-25-kg

 

As mentioned above, I use about 0.3 lb (I forgot to mention - that's for 10 gallons), which works out to about 0.016% of my grain bill for a Pilsner - a far cry below 20%. I can't even imagine what 20% would taste like and what types of lagers would even require that amount. It's quite strong, even in small amounts, and I would think that it would over-power all other flavours (except pehraps in very high gravity lagers) at 20%.

After many trials, 0.016% is the amount that, for my preference, created a perfect balance (in a German Pilsner). Unlike many other beers, all flavours (and mistakes) come out quite noticeably in a Pilsner (thus a little goes a long way), but in other higher gravity lagers, or lagers with more intense flavours, like an Octoberfest, you might want to add quite a bit more. Others may have more experience with this aspect. As @JackHorzempa mentioned above, you can rather use Munich malt (preferable for the style), but as would be expected, it contains proportionally less melanoidin than melanoidin malt.

I personally think that melanoidin has much more effect on a Pilsner and other light lagers, than on other types of "heavier" lagers.

 

Jason, it has been a quite some since I brewed an Oktoberfest beer but I used to brew this beer regularly. At that time my base malt was on the order of 50% Munich and 50% Pilsner. Given your grain bill you may indeed want to add a couple ounces of Melanoidin Malt? I personally have never used Melanoidin Malt in my homebrewing so maybe @OldBrewer would be the appropriate person to advise you here?

Cheers!

Jack

 

I've used this malt without decoction, and it made a damn fine Pilsner.

 

Many of the recipes I've seen for Octoberfest use somewhere between about 30-45% Munich malt in the grain bill. I have no idea of what the percentage of melanoidin is in Munich malt, as the importance of melanoidin in lagers rarely if ever gets mentioned, and there seems to be a serious lack of information about it. I don't think that melanoidin malt itself is of any real concern in Octoberfest, as long as you have about 30% or more of Munich malt in your grain bill. Since your recipe includes 32% Munich malt, I don't think you would need to add any more melanoidin.

 

Think of how much even better it would be if you did include a decoction as well! Or even if you added a little melanoidin malt. I think that, in terms of Pilsners, the importance of melanoidin is one of the most dismissed and misunderstood topics in any discussion about Pilsners. It took me years to discover why my Pilsners just didn't compare to the European Pilsners. When I discovered what "melanoidin" was, it changed everything for me. For decades, I always wondered what that special taste in some commercial Pilsners was, and why it never appeared in the Pilsners I made, even though they tasted quite good. That was, until I got my epiphany Why melanoidin is such an incredibly taboo and unresearched topic is beyond me. For me, the taste of melanoidin is almost addictive in a real sense, and necessary in a good Pilsner. Am I letting out a great secret known only to German/European brewmasters? Is that why they still do a double or triple decoction even today, despite their pilsner malts being more modified than before?