floor malted pils and decoction

Again, welcome to Horzempa's world. Next he will refuse to directly quote your posts....

 

Ah - I was starting to think that I was the only one who had inadvertently wandered into some strange Beer World and was being singled out for some unknown reason!

 

Fascinating! I wonder why they would do that? It makes sense that it would be difficult to isolate the melanoidins from all the Maillard products in a kilned grain. I wonder if Aromatic Malt should also really go under that name?

 

Ha! Noooo.

 

The conditions dont seem to be correct during a decoction for sugnificant leveks of maillard rx, the ph either needs to be above 10 or below 2-3, inbetween and next to nothing happenss, caramelization will happen in decoction type conditions though

 

Long boils will produce Maillard reactions. Harold Magee uses that as an exception to the rule.

Maillard reactions are why Liquid Malts darken on the shelf. It takes a lot longer at room temperature, but it happens.

 

Hey now.... some people need some hugs!

I can't see why either.

Believe it or not, I have sincerely enjoyed past and present posts by every individual in this place... Jack, the Old man, VikeMan, Brew_Betty, brave Sir Knight, and SO many others. There is such a wealth of knowledge here, and to the fairness of all, everything deserves the chance to be shared and heard without excessive grumpiness and oneupmanship from one another, myself included. You might have noticed I've taken a step or two back in the last couple of months. Sometimes, we all need to take a step or two back and get something they call "a life". And I mean this in the most sincere and bromantic way possible.

Cheers.

 

By the way... I'm very late to the party, but here's my own thoughts on decoctions:

I still don't know whether decoctions do anything useful here now in the 21st century. I know what "it" is, which for years I affectionately called it "that German flavor". I have successfully developed this flavor once when I did a triple decoction. I had intended to run an experiment side-by-side to compare against single infusion, but the experiment was messed up, and as it happens, I really haven't made any lagers since then and haven't been brewing much at all for the past couple years. Eventually I want to run the experiment again. But I can also tell you, I have detected "it" in beers from my friends who I know did NOT use decoction mashes. So....... does it really matter? Personally, I want to know but haven't been able to find out for sure yet. Based on all the forums I've been reading for many many many years, my gut is telling me that decoction is most likely NOT a significant player in the "it" factor. However, I do not yet know this for sure, and on the flip side, I'm really kind of hoping that it DOES make a difference because then I know what I need to do to try to get "it" in every lager that I brew. If "it" is more elusive than that.... then I guess I'll have to play around with different malt sources to learn which ones taste the best. Or, maybe it's a process thing, where you need to age for at least 3 months or 6 months or whatever number of months. I don't know yet.

I really would love to see Brulosophy run a long series on this, as I know they'd take the time and effort to do it right, probably better than I could do myself. However, also I wonder if like OldBrewer does whether many folks can even taste "it" at all.... can they? I do believe "it" is a real thing, not just imaginary, and "it" is so difficult to duplicate here in the states. I know I can do "it" but I'm really not exactly sure how it happened or how repeatable it might be. And I wish it was. There is just nothing better in the world in my mouth than a well crafted lager with "that German flavor". I just LOVE "it". But "it" continues to be very elusive. Guess I should be brewing a lot more lagers. I need to get bitten by the bug again it seems, as life has been getting in the way too much for me lately. I wish I could brew more. Need to find a way. That should be my goal for the rest of the year I suppose. But not this month..... I'll be away from home for the next 3 weeks. Sigh.........

Happy brewing all.

 

Fun fact. Maillard reactions are best performed at basic pH.

I often boil down first runnings for Barleywines and RIS to a lava like consistency (dehydrating it for more Maillards) and have considered using NaOH to make that boil basic then bringing it back to normal beer pH with HCl. Have not done that yet.

@OldBrewer if you need any help with the chemistry/technical jibberjabber on that primary research article you purchased send me a PM.

This is one of the more interesting thread I have read in a while.

 

As mentioned, for me "it" is it. "It" is what makes me enjoy a beer more than almost any other ingredient. It can be low malt, low hop content, etc., but if "it" is not there, I likely will just shrug my shoulders and say it wasn't a great beer.

I'm also now convinced that "it" is a basic taste - like "sour", "bitter" and "sweet", but that not everyone taste it. It might be something akin to taste blindness (like colour blindness). Also, based on the people who have tried my Pilnsers, I think that some people sense it much less strongly than others. As mentioned, I can not handle bitterness - it is likely two or three times as strong for me as it is for most people, and I know of only 2 or 3 others who also do not care for chocolate. Perhaps that is an indication of my own sensitivity to melanoidins. I don't know since I don't know of any studies in that regard.

The talk about melanoidins by John Palmer and Jamil Zinascheff that I mentioned earlier is excellent. They conclude that EVERY beer should contain some melanodins if it is to be considered worthwhile (of course I agree). Thus they are very important, and as important as barbequing a steak (which also produces melanoidins) rather than microwaving it. They totally acknowledge the taste as a flavour and its importance in all beers and especially in beer styles which require melanoidins in their profiles such as Dopplebock, Russian Imperial Stout, Old Ale, Scottish ale, and other heavier beers. They suggest that it can be obtained in three different main ways:

1) specialty grains such as melanoidin malt, aromatic malt, Vienna malt, Munich malt;
2) the decoction process (single double or triple); and
3) long and vigorous boil.

They conclude that a decoction may not be necessary, and that you can easily add some grains containing melanoidins (actually all kilned grains contain some) as a substitute, or by just doing a long (90 minutes or more) and a hard boil. They don't mention taking the first runnings and boiling it down, but they do mention that if your evaporation rate during boiling is more than about 16% per hour, you may obtain too much melanoidins.

What was lacking in the talk was a discussion about the various components of maillard products and the various components of melanoidins. That would have been very helpful. Also, there was no indication of the relative amounts of melanoidins that can be obtained by the three different ways. For example, approximately how much melanoidin malt equates to a typical single decoction, or how much melanoidin malt equates to doing a 90 minute vigorous boil? Of course there are many variables, but some approximation might be possible. This might be something that Brulosophy could attempt to answer. In fact, is there even a way of measuring the flavour components of typical melanoidins? Of course we could always uses a subjective tasting comparison by of a panel of judges.

 

Thank you. I'll let you know once I receive the document. In the meantime, I have found some useful information on maillards/melanoidin in a book I have by George Fix: "Principles of Brewing Science" (pages 116-1198 and 126-141).

There's also a short but instructive section in "Brewing Classic Styles" by Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer (same two in the talk I mentioned above) on pages 12-14.

Here's part of the section:

"Caramelization and Maillard reactions both play a role in the development of the wide variety of flavors in these malts and the beers made from them. Caramelization is a sugar-to-sugar reaction that occurs at high temperature and low moisture. (It does not happen during normal wort boiling). Maillard reactions occur over a wide range of tempratures and moisture levels and will always occur during normal wort boiling. Mailard reactions produce volatile, low-molecular-weight flavor compounds, reductones, and melanoidins. Reductones bind oxygen to improve flavor stability, and melanodins are the browning aspect of the Maillard reaction. Both types of reactions can generate some of the same flavors, like toffee, molasses, and raisin, but in general, caramelization reactions are responsible for the toffee-sweet caramel flavors in malt, while Maillard reactions are responsible for the malty, toasty, biscuity flavors often associated with baking. The low-temperature, high moisture Maillard reactions produce malty and fresh bread flavors, and the high-temperature, low-moisture Maillard reactions produce the toasty and biscuit flavors. Roasted flavors like chocolate and coffee are produced by the highest temperature Mailards and the actual charring of sugars."

In their talk, Palmer and Zainasheff almost exclusively talk about the contributions of melanoidins to some of the heavier, darker beers such as Russian Imperial Stout, Dopplebocks, Old Ale and Scottish ale. There is almost nothing mentioned about the effect of melanoidin on lighter beers such as Pilsners. This is the area of interest that I mentioned that seems to be really lacking. Again it might be that most people can sense the higher level of darker melanoidins in the heavier, darker beers, but may be somewhat blind to the taste in beers such as Pilsners. For me, the taste comes out almost as strong as hops (lower IBU), although completely different in "taste".

Again, I'm not sure if it is a taste or an olfactory sense, since it occurs at the back and back-upper parts of the mouth, and then lingers there wonderfully, long after taking a sip. It's a bit like caramel but without the sweetness, and chemically, seems a little addictive to me, like cigarette smoking (I haven't smoked for over 40 years) but without the harsh taste. I wish there were others who could experience this incredible taste to the same degree and have a similar level of enjoyment. It really makes all the difference for me in beer enjoyment, and has been a most elusive flavor for over a decade, likley because it is seldom addressed, especially in Pilsners, except indirectly when some die-hards (myself now included) insist that Pilsners should be decocted if you want to capture the real essence of "it".

 

I dont disagree that they can and do happen during a decoction, just that the rate at which they happen is likely very slow relative to caramelization reactions taking place.

you should google candy syrup done the right way, adding slaked lime works pretty well, and is a little easier to come by for most than food grade caustic. Ive made some amazing syrups using nothing but table sugar, some lime, and a nitrogen source

 

[QUOTE="you should google candy syrup done the right way, adding slaked lime works pretty well, and is a little easier to come by for most than food grade caustic. Ive made some amazing syrups using nothing but table sugar, some lime, and a nitrogen source[/QUOTE]

@ryane Yes, I have read it and made some actually. I left a comment on that post.

If I remember correctly I used yeast nutrient as the nitrogen source. I wanted a bunch of different amino acids, but surely there is other cell wall and stuff in there. Maybe protein powder next time.

Cheers.