Force carb question and http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by ronobvious2, Jul 18, 2014.

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  1. ronobvious2

    ronobvious2 Initiate (0) Aug 24, 2010 Tennessee

    The table here http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php is great, it shows temp correlation and pressure setting, but being a two-dimensional graph, it doesn't show another variable: time. Using this chart, how long is one supposed to keep a keg on a given pressure until the "green zone" is achieved?
     
  2. alanforbeer

    alanforbeer Crusader (455) Jan 29, 2011 South Carolina

    If you've got the A419 set at 40 (per your other thread), and PSI at 10-12, you will need to let it sit for at least a week before you begin to notice any real carbonation. On my system, more like two weeks is necessary to achieve 2.5 volumes. YMMV.

    This is the so called "set it and forget it" method.

    If you're impatient, there are ways to speed the process along.

    ...also, I think there is some variability based on the strength of the beer.
     
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  3. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    Until it's ready :wink:

    While a chart might be handy, experience seems to be good enough (unfortunately, everybody's experience yields a different time:confused:)

    In my experience, serving pressure (11 psi) at serving temp (38F) for ten days is just about right. 20 psi cuts a few days off that. 30 psi cuts off a few more. 50 psi takes, maybe, 2 days. But I tend to take a laid back approach, so 50 psi is almost guaranteed to over carb the beer, since I'll probably forget about it for a week or more:grimacing:.

    When you have a healthy pipeline going, this is a non-issue. My beers usually wait for weeks after they're fully carbed before I tap them.

    RDWHAHB
     
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  4. ronobvious2

    ronobvious2 Initiate (0) Aug 24, 2010 Tennessee

    Yeah, I've seen the "rock and roll" method to speed things along. I've been watching videos of kegging for weeks. I'm pretty patient though. Even still, it's possible to over-carbonate if the beer was to just sit at this setting forever, right? As for the beer, it's an ESB that I discuss in another thread.
     
  5. ronobvious2

    ronobvious2 Initiate (0) Aug 24, 2010 Tennessee

    So... start testing after one week under pressure? That's what I'm hearing. Maybe I can increase pressure to 15lbs.
     
  6. E-DUBB

    E-DUBB Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2012 Texas

    i use the "set it and forget it" method. i usually carbonate between 12-14psi (depending on style of beer) @ 37 degrees.

    my beers are fully carbonated by 10 days.
     
    #6 E-DUBB, Jul 18, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  7. alanforbeer

    alanforbeer Crusader (455) Jan 29, 2011 South Carolina

    Actually, no.

    Leave it at the same temp and pressure (ex. 40F and 10-12 psi) until the keg is empty. If you decide to increase the psi (ex. 20+) in an attempt to carb the keg faster, you run the risk of over-carbing, as mikehartigan described.

    How are you planning to serve from keg? Draft tower? Cobra tap? How long are your beer lines?
     
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  8. ronobvious2

    ronobvious2 Initiate (0) Aug 24, 2010 Tennessee

    For the time being, I'll have a beer line in the freezer and server from a picnic tap. I won't have a real kegerator setup with draft lines and all of that for at least a little bit. I guess my beer lines are 3-4ft or so. Whatever length NB gives them to you. I ordered this http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/draft-brewer-dual-keg-system-with-double-body-co2-regulator.html

    So why is it that 10-12lbs is a serving pressure? On these videos on youtube, guys have it as low as 2-5lbs or so.
     
  9. E-DUBB

    E-DUBB Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2012 Texas

    your pours might be a bit foamy with 3-4ft lines @ 10-12psi.
    im guessing the guys on youtube didn't dial in their tube lengths.
    you could carbonate @ 10-12psi for 10 days and drop the serving pressure to 2-5psi....
    but you would lose the carbonation volume over time.
    i have 8ft lines and keep the serving pressure @ 12-14psi. clean pours (perlick 525ss) every time.
     
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  10. alanforbeer

    alanforbeer Crusader (455) Jan 29, 2011 South Carolina

    E-DUBB is right.

    It is a matter of balancing your psi, temp, and line length/serving method.

    You want to balance your setup so that the amount of resistance (lines, faucet, and height of the faucet above the keg outlet) is slightly less than your psi.

    For example:

    You want to carb your beer to 2.5 vol.'s of CO2. So you take a look at your chart, and note that at your selected serving temp (40F), you need to set your psi to 12.

    You're getting roughly .5 lbs resistance from your cobra tap, and 3 lbs/ft resistance from your beer lines (3/16 ID). So...

    .5 lbs + (3 ft. x 3 lbs/ft). = 9.5 lbs resistance

    So, the pressure at your cobra tap will theoretically be around 2.5 psi (12 psi - 9.5 lbs resistance from your system)

    As always, YMMV.

    The short of it is that you will probably need to dial back your psi to avoid excessive foaming. Take a look here for a more detailed explanation:

    https://byo.com/stories/item/164-balancing-your-draft-system-advanced-brewing

    Good luck!
     
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  11. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    As delicately as possible, those guys simply don't know what they're doing. The beer seeks equilibrium - that's an immutable law of Physics. 11 psi at 28F is approx 2.5 vols CO2. Once everything is happy at those settings, it's perfect. No need to touch anything until the keg kicks. If you need to lower the pressure to serve, then something's wrong.
     
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  12. ronobvious2

    ronobvious2 Initiate (0) Aug 24, 2010 Tennessee

    Great. I'll really measure my lines when I get home.
     
  13. billandsuz

    billandsuz Pooh-Bah (2,097) Sep 1, 2004 New York
    Pooh-Bah

    the important thing to get right for proper carbonation of your beer, any beer, is the applied pressure. that is the pressure at the gauge of the gas cylinder. that tells you how much gas pressure is being maintained at the liquid in the keg.

    it doesn't need to be complicated but many arm chair experts provide disinformation.

    the line is a "choker", nothing more. it is only used to slow down the rate and force of beer delivery. if your lines are too short the applied pressure needed to maintain the proper carbonation will cause beer to shoot out like a fire hose. force the beer through a choker and it reduces the flow rate and the delivered pressure. this is for the kegerator/keezer direct draw set up. other designs can get a bit more involved. only a bit.
    using Alan's reference, 2.5 psi at the cobra tap is just about right to get beer in your glass correctly.

    for reference, the flow at the outdoor garden spigot is a lot when wide open, but less at the end of the garden hose. make the hose 100' and it is only a trickle. the pressure at the spigot hasn't changed but the delivered pressure has.
    Cheers.
     
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  14. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    oops! I meant 11 psi at 38F
     
  15. epk

    epk Pundit (849) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    I have that chart printed out and handing on the side of my kegerator.

    As the volumes/temp/psi info has really been divulged above, I'll just leave a comment about time and my own experience... With the set and forget method, I've found that within the first week, the beer has obtained an acceptable carbonation level (for my likes) to drink but over the following week or so it really becomes fully carbonated to the desired rate.

    I also think billandsuz said it best with "it doesn't need to be complicated..."
     
  16. ronobvious2

    ronobvious2 Initiate (0) Aug 24, 2010 Tennessee

    I measured my lines last night. 5ft. I'll keep my carbing pressure at 12lbs. Is there anything wrong with reducing the serving pressure when I want a glass or two then cranking it back up to 12?
     
  17. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    With a properly balanced system, there's nothing to be gained by doing that. Increased wear and tear on the valves, the extra money you'll spend for the CO2 you're venting, and looking like a rookie are the only downsides that come to mind.
     
  18. ronobvious2

    ronobvious2 Initiate (0) Aug 24, 2010 Tennessee

    OK, so I'm still thinking about this. What about something like this? http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/3-8-in-line-valve-green.html Can this be used to regulate flow and prevent excessive foaming?

    I sneaked a drink of my ESB yesterday. Tastes good, not fully carbed yet of course but it's well on its way. Got quite a bit of foam in the glass but it settled down. My cobra tap wanted to drip though. It was tightened down. I'll play with it more later on.
     
  19. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    Don't know if that would work or not. But that's too big for a beer line. You would need 3/16".

    I have to ask, why are you trying to fix something that you don't know is broken? And, if it's broken, in most cases, it's because something was done incorrectly. The solution is to do it correctly. Fixing a foaming problem by throwing additional hardware at it like fixing our educational system by throwing still more money at public schools.
     
  20. ronobvious2

    ronobvious2 Initiate (0) Aug 24, 2010 Tennessee

    Not knowing anymore than I do, I'm just exploring solutions. I'm carbing at 12lbs @ ~40F. My dispensing line is 5ft. I'm still reading and trying to get all of this stuff in my head.

    Off topic a little, but I think I'm going to reduce my carbing pressure to 10lbs today. Seems a little more close to appropriate for an ESB.
     
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