German craft beer

Discussion in 'Germany' started by einhorn, Dec 20, 2012.

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  1. bartlebierle

    bartlebierle Initiate (0) Apr 16, 2014 Germany

    Still tastes like sweet protein shake, though, with a touch of powder sugar. Maybe hence its the xmas bonus beer? The noble hops really only come through in the end. Harder to drink than their already sweet-malty Diplom Pils. Only now it comes with an already dated looking "100% craft beer" label. See RB rating...
     
    #941 bartlebierle, Dec 16, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
  2. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,030) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Something tells me we have different perceptions of "sweet." I fully admit that I like a malty beer with a good balance of hops, and I like a hop-bomb once in a while, but in no way do I need full-on hops all the time.

    That said, I can't remember the last Waldhaus I ever had (if ever), so I can't speak expertly on just how cloyingly sweet it is or isn't.
     
  3. bartlebierle

    bartlebierle Initiate (0) Apr 16, 2014 Germany

    OK I will go off on a bit of an end-of-year regional tangent and use Waldhaus as a test case for what has been happening on the DE "craft" scene this year.

    I like Waldhaus' Ohne Filter Grün and Diplom Pils as well and buy them regularly by the 6pack. They are among best breweries in BW, but many locals looking for quality beyond Rothaus do find Waldhaus beers hard to session due to the sweet malt and "thick" yeast profile. Which I as a Belgian used to sweet styles, would subscribe to.

    Only, if they are going to brew a winter seasonal, market it as "Hopfensturm" and "100% craft beer", broadly advertise the use of 8 DE hops, make a great deal of including only 1 bonus bottle per case (although many super markets are selling it as singles now)...and then what comes out is a muddled 5% sweet Helles, then many people will interpret that as another well-respected regional brewery trying to jump on the slowly departing German craft band wagon and only landing on it with one leg, the outward marketing leg. Which is a shame, because they do use prime local ingredients all the way and do not overcharge, nor have they started bottling in fancy €15 "Champagnerflaschen" (yet).

    The only thing missing is real know-how to brew non-German styles and I blame a lack of yeast expertise/experimenting. Their annual bonus beers over the last 2-3 years have been slightly off the mark: both their IPA and Red Ale were basically overstuffed Vollbiere with heller Bock leanings with no real ale yeast characteristics. Instead of trying their hands at Anglo-American styles and succeeding only so-so (that goes for many new DE breweries gainign momentum this year), I'd like to see them revive forgotten regional styles and recipes. Even if I do wonder what those would be specifically for the Black Forest region...

    Speaking of which: The new Black Forest Stout by small BW-regional brewery Ketterer (sind netterer) has a few misnomer/style issues as well. It lists all "crafty" data (down to the nr. of the UK yeast strain used) and is an enjoyable beer, just not what many would call a stout.

    Anyone else have this "love/hate" relationship with a DE regional brewery?
     
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  4. Gutes_Bier

    Gutes_Bier Maven (1,339) Jul 31, 2011 Germany

    I had a hate/hate relationship with Klosterhof up in HD.
     
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  5. bartlebierle

    bartlebierle Initiate (0) Apr 16, 2014 Germany

    Ha! Was just sipping their HeidALEberg yesterday which is a painful case in point: neither ale nor hoppy, not even by moderate standards. Just a stuffed Helles (5,5%) with a strange late hop tingle.

    Visited them last month and brewer told me he doesn't really like hops to be prominent in any style. Why brew an IPA then? They must be the only BW brewery that uses an even sweeter (bio) malt than Waldhaus - with the only difference that they don't really do anything interesting with it. We also get their Helles and Weizen down here in Allnatura. It's like having a sack of bio malt poured into your mouth.

    Now I have their fresh ImpStout sitting in the fridge waiting for a very apprehensive tasting...
     
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  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I took note of your statement concerning Waldhaus beers of: “…find Waldhaus beers hard to session due to the sweet malt and "thick" yeast profile.”

    Could you please expound upon the notion of “thick” yeast profile? I cannot relate to that description.

    Cheers!

    P.S. I did a little research of reviews of the Waldhaus Diplom Pils. Below is the review that @smakawhat posted. Nothing in there registered to me as being a “thick” yeast profile.

    “Poured from the bottle into a pils style glass.

    Crystal clear, and shimmering dark lemon and green looking. Plentiful but not excessive carbonation. Soapy white head, very bright and bleach white color with thick rings of spider lacing and sheets crawling down the glass. Big fat thick soapy white collar on the edges also. Just impressive all around.

    Great herbal hop and wonderful lemon notes of citrus. Great bakery bread action of white bread and slightly warm sensing. Real impressive.

    Palate just sings. Big notes of citrus and juiced body. Bakery malts and an almost citrus to tropical freshness on the beer. Clean finish with a mimosa and champagne like feel, but with far less carbonation and more moderate. Good thick coating everywhere, large lingering controlled hop aftertaste that goes on and on.

    A fantastic brew.”
     
  7. Crusader

    Crusader Pooh-Bah (1,651) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I tried searching for information about the original gravity of their Diplom Pils and only came up with this website where it says that the abv is 4.9% and the OG is 12.1%, which is unusual for a German pilsner these days. I also found an entry on the brewery's facebook page here, from 2012, which says that the IBU value for their Diplom pils is (was?) 28. The higher original gravity (provided that the information on the online store website is correct) coupled with the relatively low IBU should make the beer maltier and possibly sweeter than alot of other German pilsners.
     
  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Patrik,

    The information on the Waldhaus website confirms 4.9% ABV for Diplom Pils: http://www.waldhaus-bier.com/bierspezialitaeten/diplom-pils/

    [​IMG]

    Alk. 4,9% vol

    Cheers!
     
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  9. bartlebierle

    bartlebierle Initiate (0) Apr 16, 2014 Germany

    @JackHorzempa (still figuring out the subtleties of partial quoting, sorry): Thanks for picking this up.

    I grant "thick" yeast might be a bit of an idiosyncratic discriptor of mine, but in the spot-on rating you've quoted it comes down to, and nearly coincides with, the phrases "bakery bread action" and "bakery malts". To me that not only describes the raw malt ingredient, but also the taste profile of the malts as they are being rendered by the yeast profile after the lagering process.

    And while Diplom Pils is still not hefetrüb/unfiltered as their Ohne Filter, you can taste that it has, as Crusader helpfully adds, a respectable gravity...of sweet bakery malts. Enough fresh hop cone goodness to counterbalance that though.
     
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  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Thanks for that input.

    In you previous post you made mention of: “…but many locals looking for quality beyond Rothaus do find Waldhaus beers hard to session…”

    So, is the "bakery bread action" and "bakery malts" not to the locals liking and therefore makes Diplom Pils “hard to session”?

    Cheers!
     
  11. bartlebierle

    bartlebierle Initiate (0) Apr 16, 2014 Germany

    @JackHorzempa
    Yes, that might be exactly it. After decades of conditioning by filtered-down macro lagers/Fernsehbiere, it seems as if non-franconian German drinkers are not used to a discernible malt profile in their lagers anymore.

    http://www.waldhaus-bier.com/bierspezialitaeten/diplom-pils/
    In that helpful Geschmacksprofil many locals, me included, would rank the perceived bitterness a bit lower down the scale and turn up the (perceived, of course) "blumig", "malzig" and "süß" up a few notches. That doesn't necessarily entail a negative rating though. Generally I find many BW pilsners rather sweet compared to more Northern or even Bavarian ones, reflecting the landscape and climate. Also, the local Badian wine palate has grown accustomed to sweetish/lieblich Gutedel & "feinherb" Spätburgunder tastes (which it is now slowly recovering from).

    It's interesting to taste what Waldhaus' signatory malt does in their (heller) Doppelbock, by the way. That one is really "lieblich" and cloyingly sweet, without that hop counterbalance. I could not finish a glass of it as their is no real active yeast profile to "alleviate/levitate" it, as in the heavier Belgian ales I'm used to.

    Nice to be able to transatlantically spar about this "intercultural" issue for a change btw! Not much room for/interest in that on that other forum...
     
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  12. einhorn

    einhorn Savant (1,141) Nov 3, 2005 California

    We need to remember that the dumbed-down versions became dumbed-down for a reason: a majority of beer drinkers worldwide like dry, low-hopped beers, a reality that German brewers conformed to (were forced to conform to?) over the last 30 years. It's nice that Waldhaus, Rothaus and Friends are sticking to their idea of good beer, which many here on BA (and around the world) support. An idea that a new generation of German beer drinkers are also supporting, or as @Stahlsturm has said for many years now, has been around for centuries, and is now again finding it's recognition.
     
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  13. JHDStein

    JHDStein Zealot (555) Aug 16, 2013 Germany

    Well, @mjtierney2 will likely laugh at this, but I apparently have yet to learn my lesson... Even after repeated bad experiences with the Klosterhof Heidelberg, I took a flyer on their latest Imperial Stout. What can I say? I was at their admittedly excellent Christmas market and couldn't help myself: between my love for a good stout and my weakness for supporting a local brewery, I had to give it a try. I guess I will never learn...

    Klosterhof Heidelberg Imperial Stout
    [​IMG]
    I'll admit, it pours a beautiful and appropriate black with an excellent head. After that, though, it becomes a matter of taste, and I am afraid that my particular affinities are such that I poured this down the drain before I finished the first half of the bottle. There were some nice ashy-burnt aspects that I found appropriate to the style, but overwhelmingly it had a cherry or pitted-fruit sour-sweetness that overwhelmed the show and pretty much ruined everything. I don't know if this was intended, or just the sweet residue of unfermented sugars (or even an infection), but I prefer my stouts with some caramel sweetness, not sour-cherry harshness. I might have stuck through it and finished it off (it wasn't repulsive, just bad), but I have a limited beer intake and prefer to spend it on those beers that I enjoy. As such, down the drain it went. I know, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." What sort of shame attaches to being fooled for the 5th time by the same brewery? Forget that, I don't want to know; I should have stopped trying their beers long ago. And now I most certainly will.

    To get my Imperial Stout fix, I turned to a known commodity that I have yet to review: Crew Republic Roundhouse Kick Imperial Stout
    [​IMG]

    This is the real deal. It obviously pours a pitch black, with a coffee-colored head of excellent size. The flavor is also as expected and tremendous: nutty and chocolaty, along with some decent ashiness. In the background (I stress, the background...) is a touch of cherry fruitiness that adds depth and interest. Lingering throughout is a caramel, creamy sweetness that play off of the ashy notes and make you want more and more. I won't say this is my favorite stout in the world, but it's an excellent representation of the style, and the best German version that I have run across. Apparently I need to move to München so that my "locals" are a little more palatable...
     
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  14. Gutes_Bier

    Gutes_Bier Maven (1,339) Jul 31, 2011 Germany

    If Klosterhof continues to make beer, you will soon be able to measure the ABV of the Neckar!

    Although I'm not one to judge, after all I keep buying American pilsners...(more later?)
     
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  15. Zimbo

    Zimbo Pooh-Bah (2,281) Aug 7, 2010 Scotland
    Pooh-Bah

    Drank a Weihenstephaner Stout at BrewDog Edinburgh a week ago. Pretty damn fine really.
    Germany, we are coming for your bottom fermented daughters!
    :stuck_out_tongue::grinning::wink:
     
  16. einhorn

    einhorn Savant (1,141) Nov 3, 2005 California

    New-ish event in Berlin (Markthalle Neun) the Wurst & Bier Markt coming up in FEB, here is a blog (in German) about it.

    I guess if you're gonna attract Germans to new beer it's wise to include the beloved Wurst!
     
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  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Maybe you would enjoy attending the annual Wurstfest that has occurred in New Braunfels, TX in November every year since circa 1960? Good food (including wurst), good beer (this year included a BIG selection of craft beer), good music and good dancing (including Polka dancing).

    Cheers!
     
  18. einhorn

    einhorn Savant (1,141) Nov 3, 2005 California

    Unfortunately @JackHorzempa , with my business and much to my dismay, I don't take much time off to get out of CA, let alone to good ol' Germany. The scourge of self-employment I guess.

    My time will come..........
     
  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

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