German / Imported Märzens

I understand that, it just seemed at a glance like it could be referred to beers in general. AALs are low abv, use very light malts, corn or rice, that might be what contributes to quicker deterioration compared to a darker stronger more robust lager like a marzen Oktoberfestbier. I don't think that they should really be compared, just like how IPAs shouldn't be compared to a lager because an IPA is all about the hops. I just think if the standard is to treat these marzens or similar styles with a 6-12+ month best by date at their breweries or in their country, the same should oblige for us. Beer is usually "better" the fresher it is of course, but it won't necessarily be bad after 3 or 6 months depending on the style or how it was made I suppose like pasteurizing.

 

Quite the opposite. It was known since the 1800’s that brewing with adjuncts actually increased beer shelf life (i.e., increased beer stability).

From the American Handy-Book of the Brewing, Malting, and Auxiliary Trades by Wahl & Henius (1902) (with emphasis in bold by me):

“It was soon discovered by the brewers that the use of raw cereal adjuncts not only gave a paler color, greater stability, and other valuable properties to the beer…”

Cheers!

 

I understood the question to be asking about normal Germans.

Yes, there are breweries like FrauGruber, restaurants like Naïv in FFM, and taprooms like Jungbusch in Mannheim that are making it work. Maybe 1-2 per large city (Berlin obviously is an exception...). But in my opinion, these are isolated successes, not a signal of "a lot of demand". There are multiple Ethiopian restaurants in Heidelberg, but not a single craft beer bar/restaurant. And this is a tourist-expat hotspot. Nothing against Ethiopian food, but I think that pretty much sums up the relative demand in my neck of the woods.

Having said all of that, I do think it is a growing scene. 15 years ago, I had to actually drive to Belgium to buy Belgian beer. My German friends thought I was insane. Now they sometimes ask to come along. That is something. But I haven't see that increased interest translate to American craft beer demand at all.

 

Paulaner and Hacker seem to be about the same beer to me.

 

Well very light malts and low abv don't help the stability I'm sure even if the adjuncts do. Good to know though.

In the back of my mind I almost want to say that this was a part of the bigger brewers to decrease sales of the smaller brewers who can't sell their beer as fast. Obviously it is better for customers to try your product at it's freshest and peak quality as opposed to old and potentially stale, and selling more quicker when fresh allows you to make more to profit off of. This is hard to prove, but I feel like it could have something to do with the short freshness quota instilled by these early brewers. It also happens to be that they were making a very low abv and light beer as well, so it would probably have to be drunk fresher to ensure quality no matter what. Hard to prove. I wonder who even determines what is "good" or not past a certain point. This could also be in part due to the subjective palate preference. Would it be possible for German brewers to think a beer was still "good" while American brewers would say it isn't? It's possible.

 

The proper way to do this is via a trained sensory tasting team. From a brewing scientist contact at Anheuser-Busch he informed me that they use their trained sensory tasting team that is used for QC/QA evaluation of their batches to assess their beer over time. For example they would take a batch of Budweiser and over time they would evaluate it. A fresh off the line Budweiser is assigned a value of 10 and as the beer ages they will assign an averaged value across the team to track how well it tastes. They created a metric that when the beer tastes like a 7 that is a best by condition and the beer should be removed from the retailer at that point in time. They did this many times for many batches. They ‘discovered’ that a Budweiser would reach a 7 after 110 days (stored at room temperature).

Other breweries should conduct QC/QA testing similar to what is detailed above.

Of course when a brewery simply lists a best by duration of 12 months (e.g., German imported lagers) this is just a date for marketing & sales reasons. Those beers will most definitely not be ‘good’ at 12 months of age.

Cheers!

 

Post-Repeal ads suggest just the opposite - the local brewers were the ones often stressing "local=freshness", with some even claiming that area retailers got beer deliveries daily or several times a week. One of my favorites:

It wasn't until the post-WWII period when most of the big brewers located in the mid-West, built or bought branch breweries on the east and west coasts.

Also, even after 13 "down" years of Prohibition, in the US many brewmasters who returned to the brewhouse floor were German- or otherwise European-trained, and even the American-born "next generation" were often family members of German-immigrant brewers. Anheuser-Busch claimed they did not hire an American-born brewmaster in St. Louis until the 1960s.

 

They are undoubtedly similar but I get a tiny bit more depth from HP

 

What was once an advantage became a disadvantage, interesting. Thanks for the history lessons. Today though, this comes down to regular craft beer customers who care maybe a little too much about freshness discriminating against any beer that isn't less than 3 months old. If it's an IPA that is over a month old it is no longer as good as it should be. If it's a lager that is over 3 months old it is no longer as good as it was, etc. This is what ends up leading to more beers sitting on the shelf I think, customers who don't understand that freshness doesn't necessarily have to apply to every beer. Sure, every beer might be better fresher, but a lot of malty beers, strong beers and sour beers will still be fine even up to a year later if not a hop focused flavor. I've had plenty of beers that still tasted fine to me that were probably past their best by date. Everyone's palate is different though and some people might be more discerning towards potential off flavors than others. For me, I've had some fresh beers with what I thought were oxidized off flavors like cardboard, and I've had plenty of beers that I would think are past their expiration taste fine, it all just depends.

 

Serious question: Why do you think there's so much English used for the branding?

 

That is entirely possible if the beer was abused via being exposed to high temperatures. Only a few days exposure to high temperatures can greatly increase the staling process which is defined by the Arrhenius Equation. See graph below (note: temperature is in degrees C).

Cheers!

 

Well, that supposes that there are people who leave without buying any beer (doubtful) or switch to seltzer, cider, wine or spirits. I leave a lot of beer on the shelf due to its age (time since packaging) and have for decades - but I've never gone thirsty.

But, if you're comfortable with buying beer past the 1-3 month points, it seems to me you then have MORE beer to choose from than the picky others.

 

I would rather buy a beer I like that is 4 months old than buy a beer I don't like as much that is 1 month old. The only exception might be IPAs and pale ales or a hop focused beer.

 

13 Plato in most of Germany, 13.5 Plato in Bavaria.

Why? Because Märzen is just a strength classification.In the hierarchy Lagerbier, Export, Märzen, Bockbier.

 

That is not true

 

Where do Hellerbock & Doppelbock fall into the mix?

 

My question was not clear. What codifies it, a regulation or a law?

 

There are other styles that I’d argue are much better super fresh like IPAs are.

Maybe @herrburgess could comment on his experience with beers from his brewery.

 

Everyone's preference is different. Pilsners and light beers would probably be in the same category, though I think because they still have some malt flavor more than an IPA they are less "hop focused" and so while they may be subjectively better fresh, they still won't be as bad in 6 months like an IPA might be with completely fallen off hops. Any lighter beer should probably be consumed fresher. My whole point is that most beers are still fine to drink even 6 months later. I suppose fine is a subjective term though, and it depends on the beer since every beer is different. In the case of marzen Oktoberfestbiers I would say most should be fine 6 months later, maybe less so for the lighter paler festbiers.

 

I've done them blind side by side every year for the past decade it seems as they are two of my favorites. I think my conclusion is freshness sometimes contributes to me enjoying one or the other. I think they might be the same beer and the freshness might separate it.

I know it has been speculated that it is the same beer by others but I'm not sure I've ever seen it completely confirmed. That is my guess though..