Getting extra ABV without extra sweetness

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by kdgrant6, Apr 15, 2012.

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  1. kdgrant6

    kdgrant6 Initiate (0) Jul 15, 2005 South Carolina

    I bottled a Celtic Ale that a couple of weeks ago. It's still young, but I sampled one yesterday. It's much too sweet!

    I used an 8# LME package of Nut Brown malt from Williams Brewing and 2# from a package of American Light extract from the same company. I used an ounce of Chinook for bittering, and an ounce of Willamette and Cascade at the end of the boil. The yeast I used was Wyeast Scottish Ale. The Final gravity came in at 5.8%.

    I've brewed enough batches to know how to do this, but I don't. I've made stronger beers that turned out drier. What's the trick? A couple of pounds of corn or beet sugar to kick up the ABV?

    I'd appreciate help.
     
  2. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    That would do it. Though a 'couple' of pounds would be a lot to add to a 5.8% beer. Each pound of table sugar would add about .0092 to the OG of a 5 gallon batch, and about 1.2% ABV.
     
  3. jthahn

    jthahn Initiate (0) Jun 1, 2009 Indiana

    what was your final gravity? sweetness comes from whatever wasnt fermented. my first thought would be that you didnt hit your fg, or you just brefer a lower fg than youre getting. that would most likely be a yeast issue since youre doing extract. so, what yeast did you use? did you make a starter? what was your sg?
    if you want more abv and less sweetness, then you just need a higher sg/lower fg or both. this is going to be a yeast issue for you. if you arent already making starters then nows the time to start. thats where i would begin.
     
  4. kdgrant6

    kdgrant6 Initiate (0) Jul 15, 2005 South Carolina

    The Celtic Ale had an O.G. of 1.075 and an F.G. or 1.030, yielding 5.9%. It was in primary for a week and in secondary for 2 weeks. ABV. When I transferred it to secondary, the Gravity for 1.035, so fermentation was about done. The yeast (as mentioned above) was Wyeast Scottish Ale. No starter. I've done starters before and didn't notice enough difference to continue the practice.
     
  5. ryane

    ryane Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2007 Washington

    on a high OG beer like that you need to do a starter, low cell counts will give you an underattenuated beer like you have. In addition 1 week primary? far to short on a 1075 beer, you should have let it sit at least 2wks, the longer the better, and there really isnt a need to rack. It would have been better if you had roused the yeast and left it in the primary

    I would try adding some rehydrated notty or us05 to drop the FG a bit if you can, it should drop by at least another 5pts if not 10,
     
  6. Soonami

    Soonami Initiate (0) Jul 16, 2008 Pennsylvania

    1.030 is far too high if the OG was 1.075--you definitely have an attenuation problem. Your problem here is probably that your yeast stopped fermenting, either because of temperature, yeast viability, count, etc. I don't know if you used a Wyeast smack pack or white labs vial, but for a beer that big, I think 2 units of yeast or a starter would be much better.
     
  7. kdgrant6

    kdgrant6 Initiate (0) Jul 15, 2005 South Carolina

    Williams told me that the 1.030 was about right for that LME because of the unfermentables in it. I didn't think that sound right. I was going by the 25% guide. That would give a batch with 1.075 OG an anticipated FG of around 1.020.

    The batch was fermenting for 23 days--so that should have been fine. The Wyeast was very fresh, from a local supply shop--from their refrigerator, then in my cooler to my fridge, but now that I think of it, when I've done starters before, it was for bigger beers.
     
  8. kdgrant6

    kdgrant6 Initiate (0) Jul 15, 2005 South Carolina

    I think it was the Williams LME. In another recent batch of an all-grain Strong IPA, I didn't use a starter although I began with 12# of American 2-row, plus another half pound each of Munich and wheat, with a half pound of Crystal 15L for steeping. The OG was 1.080. It was in primary for 11 days and in secondary for 3 months. Gravity when it went to secondary was 1.020, which was the same 3 months later for FG. I pitched one very fresh pack of Wyeast American 2 Ale. It turned out fine with an ABV of 7.8%. I don't see how a starter could have made it turn out better.
     
  9. WickedSluggy

    WickedSluggy Savant (1,129) Nov 21, 2008 Texas

    Of course its sweet. It's high gravity beer with nearly 40% of the sugar left in it; it is going to be sweet. Seems strange that they should tell you that 1.030 is a correct FG for this beer. What was the yeast strain?
     
  10. ryane

    ryane Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2007 Washington

    racking off a yeast cake thats still fermenting can cause it to stall. Just add some dry yeast and see what that gets you, worst case you add a lb of sugar
     
  11. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    And how long was it at the shop? Regardless, a single vial/pack of yeast teleported straight from WL/Wyeast into your fermenter would still be underpitching for a 1.075 wort.
     
  12. kdgrant6

    kdgrant6 Initiate (0) Jul 15, 2005 South Carolina

    I agree about the underpitching, but the technique worked fine for the IPA. The shop moves a lot of yeast, especially Wyeast American. The stamped date on the packet indicated very fresh yeast.

    I still think it was the Williams LME.
     
  13. kdgrant6

    kdgrant6 Initiate (0) Jul 15, 2005 South Carolina

    The batch, as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, is already bottled.
    Scottish Ale.
     
  14. ryane

    ryane Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2007 Washington


    Hmm that wasnt really apparent

    About the only thing you can do now is drink them, or possibly mix them with a bone dry beer in the glass
     
  15. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    If 60% attenuation is normal for this LME, I'd say that's a seriously useless (or nearly so) extract.
     
  16. jthahn

    jthahn Initiate (0) Jun 1, 2009 Indiana

    i agree, something still doesnt seem right.
    if i was making this beer the first change i would make would be to leave it in the primary longer. id skip the secondary all together actually. my second change would be to make a starter, i know you havent seen the benefit in the past but this mit have been an opportunity for you to see that benefit.
    if you make those changes and still have issues, only then would i start looking towards the lme. come to think of it, if thats the problem theres got to be talk about it throughout the internet.
     
  17. WickedSluggy

    WickedSluggy Savant (1,129) Nov 21, 2008 Texas

    Low attenuating yeast. So, maybe you are just at the low very end.
     
  18. mnstorm99

    mnstorm99 Initiate (0) May 11, 2007 Minnesota

    Especially from Williams
     
  19. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,313) Nov 20, 2005 England
    Pooh-Bah

    To raise the ABV without adding any flavours to the brew is somewhat pointless.ABV is generally related to the quantity of ingredients put into the mash tun and it's these ingredients which give the taste.Homebrewing got a bad name in the early days when adding a bag of sugar was routine ; it gave strength without flavour.It can work, that's what Duvel do but it does make it very bland for the gravity.
     
  20. leedorham

    leedorham Initiate (0) Apr 27, 2006 Washington

    Refined sugars of all sorts are perfectly legitimate ingredients. To say they "give strength without flavor" is not telling the whole story. They help produce a dryer beer with more alcohol and can also help subdue the malt profile in favor of the hop or yeast profile if that's what you're looking to do. In addition, alcohol adds something to beer and the byproducts the yeast product when fermenting refined sugars add something different to the beer as well. If you fermented a beverage that was just water, sucrose, yeast nutrient, and yeast, it would not be flavorless.

    So no, you're not just boosting the abv and reducing the flavor, you're making a beer with a different character.
     
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