Help me build a funky Saison recipe?

I brew a batch of Saison every year (my sole batch for summer brewing). My grain bill is pretty simple in that I solely use Pilsner Malt. A augment with 1 lb. of cane sugar.

My hopping schedule is pretty traditional. I use German Magnum hops for bittering (7 AAUs) and I use Styrian Golding hops for flavor (1/2 ounce last ten minutes of boil) and aroma (1/2 ounce at end of boil and 15 minute hop-stand).

Hopefully some BA who has experience with the hops you purchased can provide some input on how best to utilize them in a Saison.

Cheers!

 

What is it you hope to get out of the aged hops? Tannins maybe? Aged hops will inhibit Lactobacillus, even though they have lost much of their Alpha Acids. But if you dry hop after the Lactobacillus has had a chance to sour, that's not a problem.

Of course, the point may be moot... if you use enough of the pallisade hops in the boil, you're going to inhibit the Lacto before it gets started. I'm speaking in general terms here. Different Lactobacillus strains have different hop tolerance levels, and I have no idea what strain is in this blend.

Since you're using The Mad Fermentationist Saison Blend, perhaps @OldSock can offer some specific tips, if he's around.

 

From Michael’s blog:

You can use the blend in any saison recipe, but here are my three of my favorite batches to get you started:

Saison 'Merican
Nu Zuland
Alsatian Saison

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/02/bootleg-biology-mad-fermentationist.html

Cheers!

 

He does say "any saison recipe." He also says...
"Not very hop tolerant Lacto. I've seen 3.8-3.9 final pH for most moderately hopped recipes. I'd leave hot-side hops out if you want it to sour more."

 

I used this yeast once and it made a very sour beer. My beer was a fruited saison. I don't have my notes from that beer, but it would have been very lightly hopped, if at all, with no dry hopping. However, it was very sour before a secondary fermentation fruit addition. Therefore if I were to brew with it again, and I wanted to control the sourness, I think I would not rely on dry hopping to do the job.

 

If you want “funky”, then you want some Brett. According to the description, that yeast blend does contain Brett. Give it a shot. If you’re not concerned about sourness from the lacto, then go ahead and hop as planned. I’ve never heard of dry hopping with aged hops though? I thought those were meant for lambics or other mix culture sours? Personally, I would skip those (let em age more). Cheers

 

Maybe describe what exactly you’re going for in this beer other than just “funky”? I haven’t really read much on this blend ass far as other users results go.

It obviously contains lacto. If you’re looking for acidity or elevated levels of acidity you’re going to have to keep the IBUs down. I’m not sure how strong this lacto is but I’d assume anything over 20 IBUs will keep the acidity to a minimum.

Never used Palisade. Description is interesting. Sounds kinda earthy/Spicey with some Apricot like aromas. It’s bred fro Swiss Tett so their are some “noble” properties maybe? Personally I don’t think Cryo hops belong in a saison recipe but to each their own. I’d drop WP temps to she sure you don’t get too much bitterness if using the cryo.

There is some interesting info out there about aged hops and their impact on the “funk” that Brett can produce. If you’re on Facebook there are some Milk The Funk threads on it specifically.

How long are you planning on aging this beer? Personally I see thus as a 3-4 month minimum beer before packaging.

As far as a “recipe” goes. Keep it simple. Pils or 2 row with a large percentage of some alternate grain. Wheat, Rye, Spelt, maybe a bit of oats and that’s it. Do you have a local maltster? Saison is a great beer to use some local ingredients. If you’re going to age it and want more Brett character mash a little higher and don’t use sugar. If you want maybe a somewhat faster turn around mash low and use some sugar.

20-30 IBUs. 1.044-1.048 OG

Make sure you have dedicated cold side gear for this beer. Or be very very diligent about your cleaning practices.

Bottle conditions to minimum 3.0 volumes of Co2 once gravity is stable. Make sure to use heavy glass. Green bottles would be ideal.

 

Hops and funk, meh. Hops and pineapple and mango esters? That’s another story. Here’s where it gets awkward, Brett needs time to funk it up, and hops need to be consumed fresh.

 

I agree in that if you want it to have some sourness from the lacto, I'd hold off on adding too many of the hops in the boil.

Here's what I would do (but this is just me). Use the aged hops in the boil to get around 10-15 IBU. No whirlpool. Pitch the blend, and ferment warm (80ish) and give the brett/sacch/lacto enough time to do their thing (3ish months). Dry hop with the Palisade a week or so before bottling.

 

With the ingredients you have on hand:
80% Pilsner malt
20% Flaked rye
90 minute boil
all the aged hops at 60 minutes
pitch White Labs Brett C along with the Mad Fermentationist blend you have.
wait until gravity is stable for at least 2 weeks
Dry hop with all that Palisde for a week
Bottle in heavy bottles.
Let it ride

 

Also, as others have mentioned, you probably would want to dedicate all of the cold-side equipment used for this as sour-only.

 

As long as you are sure that the yeast in the bottle is Brett then you can use it. I am not familiar with this brewery so I am not sure but I do know that some breweries bottle with champagne yeast or other.

 

I use a priming calculatortofigure out how much table sugar to use:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

Sugar gets stirred into a minimal amount of boiling water, and once dissolved, gets added to the bottle bucket. Transfer beer on top of it. Gently stir a few times with sanitized spoon. Cover for 10-15 minutes to allow sugar to disperse. Then bottle.