Help me build a funky Saison recipe?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Jasonja1474, Jun 17, 2020.

  1. Jasonja1474

    Jasonja1474 Initiate (160) Oct 15, 2018 Tennessee
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    Hey there guys,
    So I want to brew a Saison that has some funky to it. I purchased some yeast from Bootleg Biology called - The Mad Fermentationist Saison blend.[​IMG] This will be my first Saison also. I haven’t decided on a grain bill yet and was hoping for some input on this and also the hop schedule. Speaking of the hops I purchased these-[​IMG] My plan was to use the Palisade in the boil as bittering and and the Palisade cryo in the whirlpool or with the aged hops in dry hopping. I was hoping to get some knowledge about dry hopping a saison with aged hops. How long and how much? I know this yeast has a strain of Lacto in it so I wasn’t knowledgeable enough to know , will the dry hopping kill this off? If so when and how should I go about it? Thanks for any help guys and if you need more info I’ll try my best.
     
  2. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,654) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    I brew a batch of Saison every year (my sole batch for summer brewing). My grain bill is pretty simple in that I solely use Pilsner Malt. A augment with 1 lb. of cane sugar.

    My hopping schedule is pretty traditional. I use German Magnum hops for bittering (7 AAUs) and I use Styrian Golding hops for flavor (1/2 ounce last ten minutes of boil) and aroma (1/2 ounce at end of boil and 15 minute hop-stand).

    Hopefully some BA who has experience with the hops you purchased can provide some input on how best to utilize them in a Saison.

    Cheers!
     
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  3. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,948) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    What is it you hope to get out of the aged hops? Tannins maybe? Aged hops will inhibit Lactobacillus, even though they have lost much of their Alpha Acids. But if you dry hop after the Lactobacillus has had a chance to sour, that's not a problem.

    Of course, the point may be moot... if you use enough of the pallisade hops in the boil, you're going to inhibit the Lacto before it gets started. I'm speaking in general terms here. Different Lactobacillus strains have different hop tolerance levels, and I have no idea what strain is in this blend.

    Since you're using The Mad Fermentationist Saison Blend, perhaps @OldSock can offer some specific tips, if he's around.
     
    #3 VikeMan, Jun 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
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  4. Jasonja1474

    Jasonja1474 Initiate (160) Oct 15, 2018 Tennessee
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    Thanks @VikeMan ya I probably would pitch the dry hops after most of the fermentation but I didn’t think about the boil inhibiting the yeast. Honestly I probably wouldn’t mind if the lacto didn’t do much at anyways.
     
  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,654) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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  6. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,948) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    He does say "any saison recipe." He also says...
    "Not very hop tolerant Lacto. I've seen 3.8-3.9 final pH for most moderately hopped recipes. I'd leave hot-side hops out if you want it to sour more."
     
  7. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,910) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    I used this yeast once and it made a very sour beer. My beer was a fruited saison. I don't have my notes from that beer, but it would have been very lightly hopped, if at all, with no dry hopping. However, it was very sour before a secondary fermentation fruit addition. Therefore if I were to brew with it again, and I wanted to control the sourness, I think I would not rely on dry hopping to do the job.
     
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  8. Supergenious

    Supergenious Disciple (380) May 9, 2011 Michigan

    If you want “funky”, then you want some Brett. According to the description, that yeast blend does contain Brett. Give it a shot. If you’re not concerned about sourness from the lacto, then go ahead and hop as planned. I’ve never heard of dry hopping with aged hops though? I thought those were meant for lambics or other mix culture sours? Personally, I would skip those (let em age more). Cheers
     
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  9. wasatchback

    wasatchback Disciple (371) Jan 12, 2014 Bahamas
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    Maybe describe what exactly you’re going for in this beer other than just “funky”? I haven’t really read much on this blend ass far as other users results go.

    It obviously contains lacto. If you’re looking for acidity or elevated levels of acidity you’re going to have to keep the IBUs down. I’m not sure how strong this lacto is but I’d assume anything over 20 IBUs will keep the acidity to a minimum.

    Never used Palisade. Description is interesting. Sounds kinda earthy/Spicey with some Apricot like aromas. It’s bred fro Swiss Tett so their are some “noble” properties maybe? Personally I don’t think Cryo hops belong in a saison recipe but to each their own. I’d drop WP temps to she sure you don’t get too much bitterness if using the cryo.

    There is some interesting info out there about aged hops and their impact on the “funk” that Brett can produce. If you’re on Facebook there are some Milk The Funk threads on it specifically.

    How long are you planning on aging this beer? Personally I see thus as a 3-4 month minimum beer before packaging.

    As far as a “recipe” goes. Keep it simple. Pils or 2 row with a large percentage of some alternate grain. Wheat, Rye, Spelt, maybe a bit of oats and that’s it. Do you have a local maltster? Saison is a great beer to use some local ingredients. If you’re going to age it and want more Brett character mash a little higher and don’t use sugar. If you want maybe a somewhat faster turn around mash low and use some sugar.

    20-30 IBUs. 1.044-1.048 OG

    Make sure you have dedicated cold side gear for this beer. Or be very very diligent about your cleaning practices.

    Bottle conditions to minimum 3.0 volumes of Co2 once gravity is stable. Make sure to use heavy glass. Green bottles would be ideal.
     
  10. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,482) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
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    Hops and funk, meh. Hops and pineapple and mango esters? That’s another story. Here’s where it gets awkward, Brett needs time to funk it up, and hops need to be consumed fresh.
     
  11. Lukass

    Lukass Savant (989) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio

    I agree in that if you want it to have some sourness from the lacto, I'd hold off on adding too many of the hops in the boil.

    Here's what I would do (but this is just me). Use the aged hops in the boil to get around 10-15 IBU. No whirlpool. Pitch the blend, and ferment warm (80ish) and give the brett/sacch/lacto enough time to do their thing (3ish months). Dry hop with the Palisade a week or so before bottling.
     
  12. Jasonja1474

    Jasonja1474 Initiate (160) Oct 15, 2018 Tennessee
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    Thanks for the help. Yeah time is not an issue. I planned on not opening a bottle until next summer. I like the idea of dry hopping after a few months. So basically keep my ibu’s below 20ish during boil right?
     
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  13. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,244) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    With the ingredients you have on hand:
    80% Pilsner malt
    20% Flaked rye
    90 minute boil
    all the aged hops at 60 minutes
    pitch White Labs Brett C along with the Mad Fermentationist blend you have.
    wait until gravity is stable for at least 2 weeks
    Dry hop with all that Palisde for a week
    Bottle in heavy bottles.
    Let it ride
     
  14. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,244) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Also, as others have mentioned, you probably would want to dedicate all of the cold-side equipment used for this as sour-only.
     
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  15. Jasonja1474

    Jasonja1474 Initiate (160) Oct 15, 2018 Tennessee
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    Now this is what I’m talking bout boys!!![​IMG]
     
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  16. Jasonja1474

    Jasonja1474 Initiate (160) Oct 15, 2018 Tennessee
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    Plan on buying all new hoses and glass carboy just for this
     
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  17. Jasonja1474

    Jasonja1474 Initiate (160) Oct 15, 2018 Tennessee
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    Also I have a bottle of Brett beer from Blackberry Farms Brewery I was thinking of trying to make a starter for the dregs. Would this be ok to pitch in place of the white labs Brett c?
     
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  18. OddNotion

    OddNotion Zealot (584) Nov 1, 2009 New Jersey

    As long as you are sure that the yeast in the bottle is Brett then you can use it. I am not familiar with this brewery so I am not sure but I do know that some breweries bottle with champagne yeast or other.
     
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  19. Jasonja1474

    Jasonja1474 Initiate (160) Oct 15, 2018 Tennessee
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    @OddNotion speaking of bottling. I usually just drop one sugar cube in the bottle when bottling a ale. I k ow these need to be higher carbed so should I go another route and try to figure out how much sugar to add to a bottling bucket and carb this way or just wing it and add 2 cubes to a bottle?
     
  20. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,910) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    I use a priming calculatortofigure out how much table sugar to use:
    https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

    Sugar gets stirred into a minimal amount of boiling water, and once dissolved, gets added to the bottle bucket. Transfer beer on top of it. Gently stir a few times with sanitized spoon. Cover for 10-15 minutes to allow sugar to disperse. Then bottle.
     
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  21. OddNotion

    OddNotion Zealot (584) Nov 1, 2009 New Jersey

    When it comes to carbonation I would not recommend winging it, particularly with a beer that you will be investing a lot of time in making. What @pweis909 suggests above is what I would recommend as well. There is a delicate balance between well done high carbonation and gushers/bottle bombs. Definitely go with the more measured approach here.
     
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  22. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,910) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    One other piece of advice for @Jasonja1474 comes to mind.The bugs in this blend may break down carbohydrates that Saccharomyces strains ignore. This will add to the carbonation of beers that have several months to bottle condition. You may want to aim low with priming calculator CO2 level to compensate. My own experience is that, over time, bug beers tend to carb up to the point in which they may gush if I open them unchilled. I never had a bottle bomb, but like I suggested, I prime on the low side with them as a matter of caution. Unfortunately, I don't know of any tools for homebrewers to really dial in the carb level of beers with Brett.
     
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  23. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,948) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    As @OddNotion said, don't wing it. I would say never wing priming sugar.

    If you want to use sugar cubes, you can determine what they'll do for you using carbonation calculators like the one @pweis909 linked. Assuming you're using Domino Dots (which weigh about 2.3 grams each), 12 oz bottles, and residual CO2 from a 68F fermentation, one dot per bottle would get you about 2.5 volumes of CO2. Two dots per bottle would get you about 4.1 volumes of CO2, which is really too high for most styles and possibly dangerous for typical bottles.
     
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  24. wasatchback

    wasatchback Disciple (371) Jan 12, 2014 Bahamas
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    There is a priming calculator on Brewers Friend. There’s also a spreadsheet you can find online for blending and packaging aged beer.

    You’re going to need to re-yeast as well. Champagne yeast is the easiest option.

    I would never use normal bottles with mixed ferm beers. Heavy glass is a must.

    If there is no diastaticus Sacch present, at least in my personal experience, Brett won’t take the beer much below 1.004.
     
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  25. riptorn

    riptorn Disciple (381) Apr 26, 2018 North Carolina
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    @Jasonja1474 the conversation around carbonation reminded me of one of your posts in another thread.

    Inquiring purely in the interest of safety:
    Is the "already carbed" part a reference to the residual CO2 that's a byproduct of primary fermentation? Or maybe it's a reference to the minimal amount of CO2 that might have been picked up by the beer during a pressure transfer? Or .....??

    If you did in fact force carbonate the beer prior to bottling (which it doesn't really sound like you did), consider keeping them not only in the garage but also in a sturdy, covered, non-absorbent container.

    All my bottled beer spends at least the 1st two weeks of their life that way. I might be a little OCD in that, but I figure better safe than charded in case something was off.
     
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  26. Jasonja1474

    Jasonja1474 Initiate (160) Oct 15, 2018 Tennessee
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    Thanks for caring enough to ask for my safety and others!! I appreciate that. I fermented under pressure around 20psi. I noticed it doesn’t take my kegged beer that long to finish carbing once transfer. Or that all I have to do is chill and hook up my CO2 and it’s ready to serve. My thinking is I’m saving on CO2 cost?? Any way I have twice now after fillIng my keg, bottled the rest from the pressurized fermzilla with a picnic tap. And I thought I’d this is mostly carbed now should I put a whole sugar cube in the bottle? They do spend time in a box and the box in a heavy leaf bag. Usually 2 weeks. I need to invest in a beer gun and eliminate this whole situation but I haven’t purchased one yet.
     
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  27. Jasonja1474

    Jasonja1474 Initiate (160) Oct 15, 2018 Tennessee
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    See this is why I post with you guys! Thanks for all the help!
     
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  28. Jasonja1474

    Jasonja1474 Initiate (160) Oct 15, 2018 Tennessee
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    Question, if I let ferment until it is steady for let’s say a week. Then dry hop for a week, Then bottle it and let it age in the bottle until next year would I still need to pitch yeast at bottling? I’m confused? Or if I let it age in the fermentor for a year then dry hop at bottling this is where I’d need to pitch yeast again?
     
  29. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,948) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    20 PSI at 68F would give you a hair over 2 volumes of CO2 right off the bat. If you're going to continue fermenting under that kind of pressure (and why?), you should really get familiar with carbonation calculations, or at least figure out how to bend the calculators out there to your will to figure out how much sugar to add when bottling. By default, the calculations assume a pretty low level of residual CO2.
     
  30. Jasonja1474

    Jasonja1474 Initiate (160) Oct 15, 2018 Tennessee
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    It was 20 psi at 90°ish + and the why is because it seems like it takes less time to finish carbonating in the keg. Am I wrong in this thinking?
     
  31. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,948) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    Ah, ok, that's more like 1.4 volumes then. About fermenting under high-ish pressures...it suppresses esters, which can be good or bad. But it also decreases yeast viability and performance in general. That said, there are certainly brewers (mostly commercial) that ferment under high pressures with specific strategies in mind.
     
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  32. riptorn

    riptorn Disciple (381) Apr 26, 2018 North Carolina
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    To determine (or at least get in the ballpark of) the projected vols CO2, would it be as simple as adding those two together (2.5 + 1.4)?
     
    #32 riptorn, Jun 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  33. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,244) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    @Jasonja1474 in response to your questions to my posts, I think others have covered them pretty well.

    Personally, I am of the opinion that ALL saison yeasts are diasticus strains (just my opinion based on personal experience, not scientifically backed, I know, I know), and I wait until gravity has been stable two weeks before dry hopping (which I usually do with saisons), and then bottling. I haven't found a need to re-yeast, especially if using Brett, but sometimes it does take a little longer to carbonate than I'd like. I've only had one that failed to carbonate, but it finished at over 15% ABV, and there was still a little "silent but deadly fart" sound when I cracked the cap (sorry, best way I can describe it).

    Heavy glass bottles that can take the pressure and accept a standard 27mm cap are expensive and can be tough to come by, but are worth the investment. Way cheaper than buying beers that come in them and drinking them up, although less fun.

    I like to pitch Brett at bottling. Doing this allows me to have an ever-evolving beer; brightly hoppy at first and then more funky as time goes on. Proper bottles are a must, as is making sure that the diasticus yeast is done.
     
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  34. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,948) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    Not quite. Both of those have residual CO2 from fermentation baked in.

    One way to do it would be to take the 1.4 volumes (from the 90F fermentation at 20 PSI) and put that 1.4 volumes into the calculator (with a batch size of 12 ounces (or 0.09375‬ galons)), noting the amount of sugar (sugar "equivalent" in this case, since it won't actually be physically added) that the calculator says you would have needed to get the 1.4 volumes. Call that the baseline.

    Then tweak the CO2 volumes target until the resulting sugar requirement is 2.3 grams more than the previously noted baseline. The new CO2 volumes would be the estimate.
     
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  35. Davl22

    Davl22 Aspirant (292) Sep 27, 2011 New Hampshire
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    I’ll add and echo a few things.

    I would use the aged hops at the beginning and 15-10 min hot side. Not sure what dry hopping would bring with them, I’ve never heard of anyone trying that, but would be interesting to experiment with.

    I would def add additional Brett in primary for funk. The blackberry dregs would work well.

    I’d go lighter with the Palisade dry hop. I’m personally not a huge fan of dry hopping saisons like IPA’s since it masks a lot of the yeast character. I’m not sure if you mentioned your batch size, but I typically dry hop my 1 gal batch saison’s with .30-.40 oz. Enough to boost the aroma and add a little extra complexity.

    I’d add a boiled oak spiral soaked in white wine during primary, and let it sit 2-3 month’s. Most of my mixed ferm stuff takes a solid 4-6 months in the bottle to clean up and come together. Good luck and send me a bottle!
     
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  36. Jasonja1474

    Jasonja1474 Initiate (160) Oct 15, 2018 Tennessee
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    I like this idea and if it turns out good I’ll definitely send you a bottle!
     
  37. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,244) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    If you extrapolate that to a 5gal batch, that's 2oz. He has 2oz Palisade pellets and 1oz Palisade cryo hops. Palisade isn't exceptionally potent, so I think he should be alright, especially since there will be next to no flavor from the aged hops.
     
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  38. FrankDD

    FrankDD Initiate (26) May 18, 2019 Texas

    I bottle my beer in the quart bottles from Corona, Pacifico, Victoria brands. I like my beer with lots of bubbles 3.3 volumes and up. Have never had any problems with these bottles and I like the beer that comes with them. Quart of Corona goes for about 3.75 and I repurpose the bottle over and over, win win all the way around.
     
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