Help me interpret these oxidation comments...

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Mohican88, Aug 3, 2016.

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  1. Mohican88

    Mohican88 Initiate (0) Jan 20, 2010 Ohio

    My brewing buddy and I brewed a Belgian tripel on July 2nd and the basic gist of the recipe was as follows...

    74% Pils
    11% Munich 9°L
    15% Clover Honey (added at ~75% attenuation)
    1 oz Hallertau Aroma @ 60 (29 IBUS)
    1 oz Hallertau Arroma @ 0
    1.5 L starter of WLP550
    Single infusion mash at 154°F for 60 minutes, 90 minute boil

    OG: 1.069
    FG: 1.003 (lower than expected by 0.004, likely due to honey and healthy yeast pitch)

    The beer was in primary until July 27th, when I racked it to an oxygen purged keg and then I purged the head space 3 additional times and quick carbonated the beer over 48 hours and bottled it using my homemade counter pressure filler for a competition on Saturday. I've never had issued using this bottling method and have kept beers and ciders upwards of a year without oxidation. While bottling I used a couple drops of gelatin to clear up the beer. I've also used this method in the past for competition beers that I've wanted to clear up quickly and have tried this with some of the beers I've consumed at home with no ill effects. However...

    One of the score sheets indicated cardboard, papery, oxidized aroma and flavor and slightly astringent. The astringency I think I can attribute to the beer being highly attenuated, but the oxidation notes have me baffled. I don't understand how this beer could become so quickly oxidized in the conditions it was in. I did not disclose the honey on the bottle ID forms. Could the oxidation flavor be a flavor perception from the honey? The gelatin? Yeast flavor? Or???

    I've been drinking this beer for about a week and really enjoy it. It is quite dry with spicy clove aroma with some mild fruity esters, a hint of banana, and a the munich malt comes through nicely in the finish. I am not picking up on oxidation, but maybe my perception of the beer and knowledge of the recipe have me a bit biased.
     
    #1 Mohican88, Aug 3, 2016
  2. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Without tasting your beer, it is hard to truly assess, but here are some off-the-cuff comments:

    1. One of the score sheets? Not every judge is experienced or correct. A comment on one score sheet is worth pursuing. Share the beer with more people and see what they say?

    2. Packaging could be a problem. It may be a problem that goes unnoticed until you ship your beer around the country, where it is exposed to shaking and high temps. You said you have success with your packing before, but was it truly tested in the same way that this entry may have been?

    3. Did the entry declare the honey? Going back to #1, sometimes people taste something maybe a little sweet, maybe a little different, and they are trained to think oxidation. Until some smarter folks told us differently, homebrewers used to confuse the oxidation of imported beers with some unique sweet malty quality, and then tried to reproduce it with sweeter beers. Now that we're all edumacated, maybe we are confusing unique sweet qualities with oxidation?
     
    #2 pweis909, Aug 3, 2016
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  3. Soneast

    Soneast Pooh-Bah (1,751) May 9, 2008 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    Well I think in that short time frame, even if you splashed the beer around, and handled it horribly, which you didnt, it wouldn't exhibit signs of oxidation yet, so I lean towards an inexperienced or ignorant judge.
     
    #3 Soneast, Aug 3, 2016
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  4. Mohican88

    Mohican88 Initiate (0) Jan 20, 2010 Ohio

    Thanks for the feedback, guys. The judge that noted it was not a BJCP certified judge but had sensory training and some training from Siebel, so they certainly have some tasting experience but maybe not judging so much. Another score sheet mentioned "slight oxidation, possibly?" so there was some aroma and flavor noted that seemed to elude the judge.

    This beer actually experienced less stress than other contest beers since it was bottled from the keg the day before I dropped it off at the venue, and it was cold the entire time.

    I did not declare honey on the ID form since I didn't perceive its contribution to the beer, but I'm likely overlooking the quality it is contributing. Now that I'm thinking about it there a well regarded traditional dry mead produced locally that I perceive some papery notes from. It's possible that is the judges are getting this characteristic from the honey and had I declared it that would have removed the guesswork. I'll be sharing with some folks and getting some more feedback soon.
     
    #4 Mohican88, Aug 3, 2016
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  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Do you personally perceive cardboard flavors in this beer? Do you taste the beer (bottled) just like the judge(s)?

    Cheers!
     
    #5 JackHorzempa, Aug 3, 2016
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  6. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    I think it is not oxidation, it might be some kind of spoilage due to high temperature and shaking during shipping.
     
    #6 Tebuken, Aug 3, 2016
  7. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Honey notes in the aroma of a light colored beer are a sign of oxidation. The compound is 2,3 pentanedione. You may have fooled the judges by not listing the honey as an ingredient.
     
    #7 hopfenunmaltz, Aug 4, 2016
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  8. Mohican88

    Mohican88 Initiate (0) Jan 20, 2010 Ohio

    Jack-- I have not consumed any bottled they way it was for the competition. That's a great suggestion and something I've completely overlooked.

    Hopfenunmaltz-- The more I've been reading, the more I believe this to be the case and it's definitely on me for not disclosing the honey. I'm going to look go another competition to enter it where I will declare the honey and see what happens.
     
    #8 Mohican88, Aug 4, 2016
  9. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Savant (1,149) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    I thought I was the only one with disdain for inexperienced judges.

    FWIW, I totally agree with others who first question the qualifications of the judges rather than the actual presence of any off-flavors. Inexperienced judges often like to try to prove to themselves and others that they know what they're talking about, even when they really don't. Unfortunately, even some Certified and Nationals keep on doing the same crap.

    I'm Certified. Been there. Question everything, especially "astringency". I'm convinced that 90% of judges have no effing clue what that word means at all.
     
    #9 dmtaylor, Aug 4, 2016
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  10. Lukass

    Lukass Pooh-Bah (2,891) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah

    I've bottled off the keg before for a competition, and got dinged for oxidation. My methods were also a lot more carefree than your's (jammed a piece of transfer tubing into the faucet and set the pressure to super low on the regulator before filling). BUT, that same judge also gave another beer of mine that had been praised by a few other judges a low score. Like the others said, I wouldn't base the criticism of one judge as being a viable concern. If you had a few judges point out oxidation, then maybe consider it. What did it end up scoring overall?
     
    #10 Lukass, Aug 5, 2016
  11. premierpro

    premierpro Savant (1,060) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    From what I have experienced beer judges look real hard for faults and if they don't find them they make them up. I am not a judge but have judged a few competitions and I take the approach of looking for whats good in the beer to style and only point the bad if it is really bad. I got a score sheet back on a Dunkel where the Judge told me I needed a higher percentage of Munich malt. My base grain was 100% Munich malt. So bottom line is not to worry about a judges score sheets. Half the time their drunk anyway!
     
    #11 premierpro, Aug 5, 2016
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  12. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    I don't make comments like that anymore (unless I'm drunk), as you have not a clue as to how the beer was made.

    Yeah it is a crap shoot. Beers can score well in one competition and not so good in another. Sometimes the faults are there and are something I overlook, but on inspection I can find them. Sometimes the judges are just wrong.
     
    #12 hopfenunmaltz, Aug 6, 2016
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  13. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    If entered as a Tripel, how would the judges even see the ingredients?
     
    #13 VikeMan, Aug 6, 2016
  14. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I guess if you entered as a tripel, under standard competition rules, this is a style where you are not asked to make declarations, as opposed to some specialty types. Therefore, I believe that take home message is that if the honey has an impact on the beer, enter it in some specialty category. And if the honey doesn't impact the beer, table sugar is a cheaper alternative!
     
    #14 pweis909, Aug 6, 2016
  15. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Yeah, missed that, no ingredient list for a Tripel.

    Edit 31b, declare as a Tripel with honey.
     
    #15 hopfenunmaltz, Aug 6, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
  16. Mohican88

    Mohican88 Initiate (0) Jan 20, 2010 Ohio

    Thanks for all of the feedback. In upcoming competitions I am planning to enter it in 31b with the honey declared and may enter it in as 26c-Tripel for the heck of it anyway. Generally the feedback from the competitions has been very helpful and led to improvements in all my beers the last few years.
     
    #16 Mohican88, Aug 6, 2016
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