Help me to help

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Tebuken, May 16, 2017.

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  1. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    Hi guys, so I am looking for some help regarding an infected 380 liters beer batch resting in a fermentor at 68 F.I have some friends who have a nanobrewery here in my town and they have asked me for help to try to save this mentioned batch.
    I am going to visit the brewery tomorrow afternoon(4 PM Argentina time) to see what this is about.They have told me they find this beer a bit sour, kinda green apple tart taste but there is no traces of any kind of pellicle. It is not a subtle off-flavor , it is a very easy to catch,very noticeable taste.
    I have advised them not to discard this batch yet but I am not so sure where should I start to help them.
    I was thinking to take a ph read to see how far has beer ph gotten down , then if it is not way too low I am considering to add a pinch of calcium carbonate to a sample to raise ph to 4,2 - 4,5 and see how does beer taste.
    I don`t know yet and I think it´s not gonna be easy for me to figure what the cause of the sourness is, maybe it is only acetaldehyde , maybe not. They suspect the culprit is a dirty plate chiller but they are not sure about that either cos there is another batch that is not ìnfected`.
    Any help will be appreciated
     
  2. LakesideBrewing

    LakesideBrewing Zealot (604) Dec 1, 2013 Massachusetts
    Trader

    They mentioned 'green apple' that could mean they might have some acetaldehyde in the beer. It could just be green, young, and was taken off the yeast prematurely. But without some stats, OG, FG, ferm temp, ferm time, etc., it might be tough to diagnose.
     
    JrGtr likes this.
  3. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    They have mentioned a strong off flavor, weird but you know ...someimes it is not easy to describe.
     
  4. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Take a sample. Raise the temperature to 75-80F and let it set for a little bit. Taste it, is the green apple still there? The reason i suggest this is that acetaldehyde has a 68F boiling temperature, so it will be gone if that is what it is.
     
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  5. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    Thanks for the advice, when you say let it set for a little bit, how long does it mean?
     
  6. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    I would say a few minutes, up to 5. You should smell the acetaldehyde Strong at first, then less with time. Taste and see if it is gone. It may not be acetaldehyde.

    Have a fresh sample poured right before you taste for a side by side.
     
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  7. premierpro

    premierpro Savant (1,060) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    If the batch is bad distill it. Good luck!
     
  8. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    They haven´t got an alembic.

    I was thinking if this batch could not be saved I would suggest them to add my captured wild yeast and wait 10-12 months to see what we get.What do you think?
     
  9. premierpro

    premierpro Savant (1,060) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    I am the last guy on this forum to give advise on anything wild, sour or funky. I disdain these flavors as they are revolting to me. Take care.
     
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  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Do they have the resources (e.g., tank space) to try this? I would think for a very small brewery it would make sense to dump an infected batch and quickly brew up a new batch.

    Cheers!

    P.S. Hopefully the situation here is that the beer is just green.
     
    #10 JackHorzempa, May 16, 2017
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  11. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    They have enough space and several fermentors but maybe I am wrong thinking about the possibility of continuing with this´ infected´ fermentation because there is no consumer in this town able to enjoy a sour beer with all those funky flavors.
     
  12. premierpro

    premierpro Savant (1,060) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    Also I can't imagine how fun a brewery infection would be!
     
    frozyn, PapaGoose03 and JackHorzempa like this.
  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Yup! A few years ago Sierra Nevada collaborated with Russian River in brewing a beer using some Brett; Brian Grossman had a challenging time convincing his father Ken Grossman to grant permission to bring some Brett into the Chico brewery. It is my understanding that Sierra Nevada took great steps to isolate the brewing of this beer from the remainder of their regular brewing operations.

    Cheers!
     
  14. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I think taking an off batch and trying to pass it off commercially as a sour is a terrible idea.
     
  15. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    Well guys I am updating what I have found today , good news is this batch was not infected(IMHO), I took a sample from fermentor and have found a terrible acetaldehyde aroma and taste.As Hopfenunmalz has advised me I heated it up to 74 F and let it sit for 5 mins, then I could figured acetaldehyde aroma has gone but acetaldehyde taste hasn´t. In the meantime I figured beer was a bit sweet so I started to suspect FG was a bit high, and it was.... 1018 from 1050 OG.Then I asked to the brewmaster why he put fermentor inside the cold chamber for maturation while yeast has not finished its work.He told me that an employee has taken FG read telling him it was 1010. I think that´s not true, I think they have erroneously tried to accellerate the process making a giant mistake.Nevertheless I have advised them to restore the fermentor to fermentation chamber and add more fresh yeast to try to finish fermentation at a little bit higher fermentation temp than the initial(68F) around 72F. I am not so sure how this will turn out but today beer is not very drinkable.

    Any thoughts will be appreciated
     
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  16. youradhere

    youradhere Initiate (0) Feb 29, 2008 Washington

    Yes, but I've had plenty of brewery "accidents" (infection) that were actually quite good, and they stated them as such. If it tastes good, why not?
     
  17. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I would not recommend pitching Brett or other so-called wild yeast strains unless that is a direction they want to take. I more conservative solution is to pitch more fresh yeast of the original strain. If it is acetaldehyde, pitching fresh yeast and allowing some time should take care of the problem.

    If the problem really seems to be an infection from a dirty plate chiller, I would not recommend incurring additional expense to try to save the beer. Any efforts along those lines would be best redirected at cleaning up the brewhouse.
     
  18. Jaguar10301

    Jaguar10301 Crusader (423) Mar 1, 2010 Maine

    Funky yes I agree, sour is amazing though :wink:
     
  19. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    They are using Windsor dry yeast, I have advised them to add new fresh yeast but I haven´t told them to rehydrate it first and let it start a new fermentation in a big starter(say 30 litres 1030 OG wort). Don´t you think it would be better to add an active yeast than a non active one?
     
  20. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    That may be the explanation for the final gravity they achieved; Danstar Windsor is not a highly attenuation yeast strain.

    Do you have any idea what the grain bill was and the mashing regime?

    Cheers!
     
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