Help with "cheesiness" in sours

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by fritts211, Aug 13, 2013.

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  1. fritts211

    fritts211 Initiate (0) Feb 19, 2011 Tennessee

    All right guys, I'm putting out the bat symbol for sour aficionados, yeast enthusiasts, and beer chemist wunderkinds.

    I love my wife. I love sours. Sours love us. I'm fairly confident she loves me :astonished:. Yet, there is a problem in our twisted menage a trois. All would be well with our torrid love affair except for one problem: my wife swears up and down in certain sours she can taste a cheesiness in select sours. I know that certain yeast strains can cause this, and it isn't an altogether uncommon experience during a sojourn through the Sour Lands, but I need to figure out what it is. For her sake. For beer's sake. For our children... and mostly because I'm curious.

    So, Lactobacillus? Pediococcus? Brett? Flying Spaghetti Yeast Monster? Impossible to know for sure?

    Some beers she loves: Tart Lychee, Lolita, Duchesse de Bourgougne, and Cantillon Kriek, a few others whose names escape me.

    Some she curses: Berliner/Florida Weiss (Oarsman, CCB pilot batches, and Pipeworks among others), Cantillon Gambrinus, Madame Rose, Gose.

    For the life of me, I can't figure out the common culprit. Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated. Cheers!
     
    #1 fritts211, Aug 13, 2013
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  2. Danny1217

    Danny1217 Initiate (0) Jul 15, 2011 Florida

    She loves Cantillon Kriek, but hates Rose De Gambrinus? Does she know those are the same exact beer, but with different fruits?
     
    #2 Danny1217, Aug 13, 2013
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  3. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Grand High Pooh-Bah (8,071) Dec 8, 2007 North Carolina
    Mod Team BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah Trader

    It is definitely present in some beers but I have only come across it rarely - the one that comes to mind are Hannsens Experimental ones (she should definitely avoid).
     
    #3 dbrauneis, Aug 13, 2013
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  4. cavedave

    cavedave Grand Pooh-Bah (4,157) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    In Memoriam Pooh-Bah Trader

    Some aged hops used in some lambics have a definite cheesiness to them.
     
    #4 cavedave, Aug 13, 2013
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  5. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    A "cheese" character can come from using old hops -- maybe even aged hops? I'm sure that someone more enthusiastic about sours may have more details, but that would be my first thought.

    (just as CaveDave said before I clicked enter!)
     
    #5 steveh, Aug 13, 2013
  6. OneDropSoup

    OneDropSoup Pooh-Bah (2,213) Dec 9, 2008 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    The cheesiness in the hops should be eliminated in the long-ass boils that lambics take. My guess is that the cheesiness is from the lactobacillus, maybe the pediococcus, or a combination. Lactobacillus produces lactic acid, & I imagine some of these bacteria are also present in some of the funky cheeses over time.
     
    #6 OneDropSoup, Aug 13, 2013
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  7. fritts211

    fritts211 Initiate (0) Feb 19, 2011 Tennessee

    Yes. I have no idea where the discrepancy comes from, but am not stupid enough to argue the point.
     
    #7 fritts211, Aug 13, 2013
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  8. Hanzo

    Hanzo Initiate (0) Feb 27, 2012 Virginia

    Is she enjoying a cheese tray while drinking these beers?
     
    #8 Hanzo, Aug 13, 2013
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  9. fritts211

    fritts211 Initiate (0) Feb 19, 2011 Tennessee

    Thanks for the tip. Always happy to avoid incidents that could lead me to sleeping on the air mattress :wink: .
     
    #9 fritts211, Aug 13, 2013
  10. fritts211

    fritts211 Initiate (0) Feb 19, 2011 Tennessee

    Only once with an infected sour. It was... Unpleasant.
     
    #10 fritts211, Aug 13, 2013
  11. RichardMNixon

    RichardMNixon Maven (1,431) Jun 24, 2012 Pennsylvania

    I've had friends complain that gose smells/tastes of feet, and I think feet and cheese are often compared. Is it a foot-like cheese that she detects? Might be this guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brevibacteria
     
    #11 RichardMNixon, Aug 13, 2013
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  12. steveh

    steveh Grand Pooh-Bah (4,174) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society Pooh-Bah

    So, if a brewer is using old hops he can eliminate some of the off-character by boiling longer?

    I think the only beer I ever had where I noticed the cheese character was a pub-brewed amber ale of some sort, so probably not a long boil there.
     
    #12 steveh, Aug 13, 2013
  13. fritts211

    fritts211 Initiate (0) Feb 19, 2011 Tennessee

    Definitely has made that comparison a few times. That could be one culprit. It's run the gamut from feet cheese to Parmesan (normally something she enjoys, just not in beer), to "Swiss."
     
    #13 fritts211, Aug 13, 2013
  14. RichardMNixon

    RichardMNixon Maven (1,431) Jun 24, 2012 Pennsylvania

    A little research into parmesan turned up something even more straightforward: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Methylbutanoic_acid

    It says brettanomyces can make that. The wild stuff is notoriously uncontrollable, so maybe sometimes the brett goes a little overboard in that direction.
     
    #14 RichardMNixon, Aug 13, 2013
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  15. jampics2

    jampics2 Pooh-Bah (2,414) Dec 19, 2008 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Butyric acid perhaps? That stuff smells like blue cheese, baby farts and bile. Had a few beers (Pipeworks Blue Lady B1, Rivertown Pestilence) with high levels of butyric that were undrinkable.
     
    #15 jampics2, Aug 13, 2013
  16. OneDropSoup

    OneDropSoup Pooh-Bah (2,213) Dec 9, 2008 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I imagine, but we're talking like a 5-6 hour boil for lambics. I don't know if the character would be neutralized with a shorter "long boil", but the only other styles that might benefit from this would be malt-bombs any (barleywines).
     
    #16 OneDropSoup, Aug 13, 2013
  17. Thehuntmaster

    Thehuntmaster Initiate (0) Sep 2, 2009 South Africa

    If you don't like cheesey sours avoid Eszett (yes I know its a whale and almost impossible to get), but the first bottle I tried had a huge brie rind character. I loved it but I can imagine it might put some people off.
     
    #17 Thehuntmaster, Aug 13, 2013
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  18. Eriktheipaman

    Eriktheipaman Pooh-Bah (2,303) Sep 4, 2010 California
    Pooh-Bah

    I believe Lambics at least, and I would assume the same for a lot of sours, traditionally use aged hops.
     
    #18 Eriktheipaman, Aug 13, 2013
  19. OneDropSoup

    OneDropSoup Pooh-Bah (2,213) Dec 9, 2008 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    How did you start with post #12 & skip posts #4, 5, & 6? I apologize for sounding bitchy, but this isn't a long thread & three people already mentioned that. And you're not even really answering his question.
     
    #19 OneDropSoup, Aug 13, 2013
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  20. SierraJosh

    SierraJosh Initiate (0) Aug 13, 2013 California

    i am always on the lookout for a bleu cheese/diseased gallbladder sour...who knew one existed in my hometown..GO REDS
     
    #20 SierraJosh, Aug 13, 2013
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