High Chloride instead Sulfate in a IPA

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by GetMeAnIPA, Aug 18, 2015.

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  1. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Pooh-Bah (2,559) Mar 28, 2009 California
    Pooh-Bah

    With the most recent thread on "Northeast/New England" IPAs there was a lot of talk about the creamy soft mouthfeel. Doing some research some people say that part of the mouthfeel comes from a high chloride as opposed to high sulfate. Has anybody adjusted their water so the chloride is @200 and the sulfate is lower like @70?

    I don't believe any numbers were discussed in the thread so I was curious if an ipa brewed with only making the chloride high and not using a yeast such as Conan would it still be creamy?
     
    #1 GetMeAnIPA, Aug 18, 2015
  2. IPeteA91

    IPeteA91 Initiate (0) Nov 10, 2012 Texas

    I've not even used a chloride/sulfate ratio like that for my stouts. Maybe use a 1/2lb of oats to get the creaminess you desire?
     
    #2 IPeteA91, Aug 18, 2015
  3. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Pooh-Bah (2,559) Mar 28, 2009 California
    Pooh-Bah

    I recently started to get more of a creamy mouthfeel and on my last ipa I added 8% flaked wheat. It won't be kegged until this weekend so I don't know how much mouthfeel it added.

    The general consensus is to use a yeast like london 3 or conan, add flaked wheat or barley and proper water adjustments. Curious to know if anybody has adjusted their water with calcium chloride to reach a high level like 200. For IPAs I add gypsum to get my sulfate up to @250, so this water adjustment would be the complete opposite of what I usually do.
     
    #3 GetMeAnIPA, Aug 18, 2015
  4. FFreak

    FFreak Savant (1,065) Nov 10, 2013 Vermont

    I upped my Cl to 81 in my last IPA batch from a typical ~50 but kept the SO4 in the ~200 range. That was a total of 6 grams CaCl2. I couldn't bring myself to add more CaCl2, and I've always heard that high SO4 accentuates hops, which is what I also want along with the creamy mouth. The beer is creamy, but not nearly as hoppy as I'd like. I tend to agree that adding oats or flaked wheat might be a better way to get the mouthfeel rather than upping the Cl.
     
    #4 FFreak, Aug 19, 2015
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  5. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Pooh-Bah (2,559) Mar 28, 2009 California
    Pooh-Bah

    Do you feel the higher level of chloride negatively effected the hops? I've always, in my limited experience, increased the sulfate to accentuate the hops. I have really enjoyed my IPAs and they are plenty hoppy but curious on the chloride additions for mouthfeel, particularly that London 3 and Conan yeasts aren't available into area without having to pay for shipping.
     
    #5 GetMeAnIPA, Aug 19, 2015
  6. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    Sulfate gives you more bitterness and a long dry finish. As for hop flavor and aroma, not in my experience. Based on brewing German Pils with ~80 to 90 ppm sulfate, vs Czech Pils with about 0 sulfate.
     
    #6 hopfenunmaltz, Aug 19, 2015
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  7. MrOH

    MrOH Grand Pooh-Bah (3,995) Jul 5, 2010 Virginia
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Perhaps this explains the ridiculous whirlpool and dry hop amounts we hear about for the NE IPAs.
     
    #7 MrOH, Aug 19, 2015
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  8. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Pooh-Bah (2,559) Mar 28, 2009 California
    Pooh-Bah

    I agree. I was reading something about that. Increasing the chloride will give more body that makes the beer seem more malty so you counter it with excessive hops to compensate.
     
    #8 GetMeAnIPA, Aug 19, 2015
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  9. MarriedAtGI

    MarriedAtGI Zealot (569) Feb 26, 2013 Illinois

    I enjoy the effect of chloride in any beer, but I have never gone above 50ppm, and I'm inclined to agree with the advice I have found online (In particular from BrunWater) to keep it under 100.

    I would advise anyone working with water salts to taste a bit of the salts.

    Calcium sulfate has a very dry and comparatively mild effect on the tongue, so I can see why it can get to high levels in Burton style beers. For me personally, I don't care for it when I can taste overwhelming sulfate.

    Calcium chloride has a more intense burning sensation on the tongue, so I would not expect you could go to 200 ppm without negatively impacting your beer.
     
    #9 MarriedAtGI, Aug 19, 2015
  10. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Pooh-Bah (2,559) Mar 28, 2009 California
    Pooh-Bah

    When I am done with my salt additions of gypsum and lactic acid for my IPAs I usually end up with @40/50 ppm for chloride but I wouldn't say they are creamy. My sulfate is @250+ppm with a .15 chloride to sulfate ratio.

    I am going to bump my chloride to @80/90, still under that 100 ppm threshold, and lower my sulfate next brew and see how that effects the body and hops.
     
    #10 GetMeAnIPA, Aug 19, 2015
  11. FFreak

    FFreak Savant (1,065) Nov 10, 2013 Vermont

    This could very well be the case. It was adequately hopped - 4 oz late boil, 6 oz hopstand and 5 oz dry hop (6 gallon batch). It has a decent aroma, but I definitely expected more hop flavor. And now at about 6 weeks in the bottle, it's turning more thick and malty.
     
    #11 FFreak, Aug 19, 2015
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  12. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 HCO
    126.4 11.0 6.0 87.5 142.9 19.976

    I used this water for my current batch of semi hoppy saison. This was tap water with relatively low Cl and SO4 plus 8g of gypsum and 6g of CaCl2. I can taste the CaCl2 at this level and wouldn't want to try more. It does make a softer beer. I can't say it does anything great for the hops and prefer the longer finish that a higher sulfate / lower chloride content provides. YMMV
     
    #12 Brew_Betty, Aug 19, 2015
  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Dave (@telejunkie) do you have any insight in Chloride values for Vermont IPAs?

    Cheers!
     
    #13 JackHorzempa, Aug 19, 2015
  14. telejunkie

    telejunkie Savant (1,107) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    @JackHorzempa I don't have them for HF, Heady or Fiddlehead, but Lawson & JC both said 2:1 sulfate to chloride for their IPAs. Would be fun to do a test run on my LaMotte kit to see if I could pull some numbers on those others...wondering if the tests would work for beer...
     
    #14 telejunkie, Aug 19, 2015
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  15. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    FWIW, I found the below quote as a comment to a blog by Michael Tonsmiere:

    “My signature IIPA which has won several gold medals has a 2.5:1 SO4:CL ratio with about 150ppm SO4. I found this to be optimal as it lends to being quite bitter but still very smooth and pleasant.”

    Classic Brewing Water Profiles (rant) | The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog

    So, maybe something like 2:1 to 2.5:1 Sulfate to Chloride ratio is a ‘sweet spot’ for IPAs?

    Cheers!
     
    #15 JackHorzempa, Aug 19, 2015
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  16. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Pooh-Bah (2,559) Mar 28, 2009 California
    Pooh-Bah

    Thanks Jack. I was reading some of the mad fermentationist's blog as well as another that got me interested in the chloride ratio. There is a recipe for a juicy creamy ipa that has a water profile of 120 chloride and 140 sulfate.
    The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog: Hop Juice - Northeast IPA Recipe
     
    #16 GetMeAnIPA, Aug 19, 2015
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  17. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Vermont Cult Clones
    Every recipe in this issue suggests water chemistry and especially chloride levels play a part in NE IPA mouthfeel.
     
    #17 SFACRKnight, Aug 19, 2015
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  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Thanks for that link; a very interesting read!

    It appears that Mike took a ‘kitchen sink’ approach to brewing this beer:

    · Flaked Maize

    · Wheat Flour

    · Wyeast 1318

    · 120 PPM chloride and 140 PPM sulfate, including mash and sparge water.

    Lots of ‘moving parts’ there.

    I took note that three folks commented concerning Wyeast 1318:

    “I'm a fan of 1318 and usually use it for Special Bitters and English stouts. Your fermentation sounds very different from what I've observed with that yeast. Usually, it's a thick, whipped cream cheese consistency krausen an inch or two thick. it's frequently persistent, to the point where the beer finishes and drops clear with the krausen intact. Never had blow off or clarity issues.”



    “Must have been the wheat, 1318 typically drops and clears fast; I use it my English and American IPA'S and it is a wonderful strain, that allows a quick turn around. Love the fruit character that it provides without dominating the beer....that is if you keep the temp down on it.”



    “I've brewed about 7 or so single hop pales with this yeast. Using open FV's, top cropping and bottle conditioning. FWH, steeps and dry hops only. Mashed at 68C and fermented at 18C. FG's around 1.012. Chloride 120 Sulphate 180.

    IME the beers cleared fine.”



    Based upon the above three comments it sounds to me like Wyeast 1318 is not necessarily a haze inducing yeast.

    Cheers!
     
    #18 JackHorzempa, Aug 19, 2015
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  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,375) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Despite what the link indicates, Dave Green (telejunkie) was the author of that article.

    You can read his post above concerning chloride values for Vermont breweries.

    Cheers!
     
    #19 JackHorzempa, Aug 19, 2015
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  20. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Pooh-Bah (2,559) Mar 28, 2009 California
    Pooh-Bah

    Ha! Threw in all the suspected culprits to brew a "New England" IPA. I am curious is how each individual ingredient impacts the beer. If a strain like S-05 was used with a higher chloride ratio and flaked wheat would that have the same impact? Would just adjusting the chloride ratio to an ipa I really like give it more body?

    Interesting about the 1318 as I have heard both that it creates a hazy beer and not a hazy beer. JC does state he uses a highly fluctuate yeast, which sounds like 1318, and his beers are extremely hazy if not turbid.
     
    #20 GetMeAnIPA, Aug 19, 2015
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